Gt2259 smaller turbo better torque
 

Most people will never get over the 300whp mark because they will by a kit and be happy!! If the do go up probably 95% of those will never get above 400whp because it caust to much to build the engine.

So I was curious about the wrx turbo(gt2259)! I understand we have high compression. But I also have looke at a bunch of turbo/supercharger graphs and have noticed how are torque seams to peak higher in the rpms which leave us with a gutless car in the lower rpms. I wish I could post a pic but for some reason I can't get it to work! The wrx on the gt2259 and e85 makes great low and midrange torque, but suffers in the high rpms. Still graphs show nearly 275lbs around the 3000rpm range where are car wouldn't see it till aroun 5000rpms. The peak hp is only about 275 as well compared to let's say 330 hp on a normal boosted frs.

My question is would this make are cars a lot funner and less gutless. Allowing better driving experience. The same wrx has been down the track in like 12.5 sec. Not sure what are car around 350 hp would do. But the old saying is "torque wins races"

By the way I'm not in it for the drag just posting a time for comparison. I am wanting a car that has the power when I need it not just on a dyno graph!!! Also to point out there are many races on YouTube that show to identical hp rating for let's say a frs and wrx and the wrx pulls on the frs. Any thought I'm just curious?!?

The FA20dit is a worse engine overall. The reason it makes so much torque is because of the different gearing. The wrx turbo might work somewhat but it is pretty small. Locally we have kits with turbos based upon GTX28 series Garrets but heavily modified. These turbos on the kit we run makes full boost at around 2500 rpm and holds till redline. The reason why so many turbos are gutless down low is because of inefficiency and lack of response. This can be fixed if designed correctly though.

Yes I understand that too I finally got a post up with a stock wrx dyno up top and this dyno is done by ptuning and is probably the best dyno I have seen for are car for daily driving! But if you notice how the wrx has more torque down low!! Also just wondering how are numbers would be compared to the wrx seeing how we have a higher compression to start with. As for the gearing ratio I believe the wrx only has a 4.11 gear and are are I be live 4.10 so there's not much difference there

Our motors are 12.5 CR. That precludes us from running a lot of boost to begin with. We have better heads and better overall motor, but the CR is the limiting factor for boost. Doesn't matter if you get a fast spooling small turbo if you're going to wastegate it at 8 psi, the 1.9 CR difference won't make up the fact that the FA20F runs 16 psi.

I built my motor with a 10:1 CR and at the moment 16 psi out of an EFR 6758 as early as the turbo can do, single scroll only, and let me just say it's quite punchy even at 3500 rpm haha. Tuned myself on the street though, so no dyno plots to share unfortunately.

On e85 are motor can run roughly 14 to 16 psi??

And here's one posted for a c38 supercharger so it has highe boost and running e85, like I said the hp is good but the torque is lacking.

They also have gearboxes. Driving a WRX in 4th is like driving ours in 5th. From everything I've experienced my cars quicker than a WRX. Everywhere. Hell around the track it keeps up with the porsche club. The little twin scroll that the WRX runs would possibly be to small. And you'd have to modify it since the wastegate is set for 16 psi or something isn't it? You'll find that the WRX pulls on FRS's on videos is because of people inflating dyno numbers and response. 95% of the turbo kits out for the 86 suck in the sense that they could be so much better. Below is a stock WRX with a tune. This is a tuner that doesn't fudge numbers and pretty much has the lowest reading dyno numbers I've ever said. That said they are faster than other cars because he doesn't inflate numbers, focuses on reliability and doesn't care about the E-penis factor that is online dyno numbers. If you want this car to be great as a daily or track car with excellent throttle response you want a Water to Air intercooler, GTX28 turbo and a cast manifold. It'll make peak boost at around 2500 rpm and hold it to redline. Or you can get a front mount Intercooler, High mount Turbo GTX3071R and stainless manifold and sit around all day for the turbo to spool and just end up melting everything. Frankly though roll or drag racing means about as much as a dyno number. Go to a track and then show me who has the better car. Or hell, don't even care at all.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...89154672_n.jpg

And note the blue line in the pic I posted before is the Stock MY15 WRX tune. The run was pulled out of because it detonates excessively in some cases. For a super responsive 86 you want something like this. An EBC would make it even better too.
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...01685938_n.jpg

The WRX is geared taller than the FRS/BRZ/86

Transmission ratios (x:1) 1st-3.454, 2nd-1.947, 3rd-1.296, 4th-0.972, 5th-0.780, 6th-0.666
Wrx

FR-S Gear Ratio Comparison
____AT ___MT __# differenc _% difference
1 _3.626 __3.538 __0.088 ____2%
2 _2.188 __2.06 ___0.128 ____6%
3 _1.541 __1.404 __0.137 ____10%
4 _1.213 __1 ______0.213 ____21%
5 _1 ______0.713 __0.287 ____40%
6 _0.767 __0.582 __0.185 ____32%
R _3.437 __3.168 __0.269 ____8%

sorry to push button bro I just have sum thing stuck in my head and trying to sort it out. Is you dyno graph for a frs or wrx?

Sorry just say wrx

Yep that it is. I did post that above somewhere. What I should say is that gearing, dynos on each day, internal differences, boost levels etc make it produce more torque. Chucking that turbo on a FA20 would not make it magically produce the same numbers as a FA20DIT. Rather it'd be a FA20 with a small turbo.

And was it on e85? The graph I show was e85.

Oh and by the way if memory serves me right the AT vs MT list was actually back to front. my Car sure as hell doesn't do 240 or something in 4th.

Nope they both say 98 Ron which would be 93 in America I believe. With E85 those numbers would be around 200kw.

Yea I'm just trying to see different possibilities. I guess I'm just curious if one it would work two what the actual outcome would be three if it would be better daily driver and four if lag would be low enough to seem if it wasn't there. Maybe even if we could retrofit a junk yard kit fro a wrx for cheaper too? Like I said my head is running and just looking for answers.. To me hp is not important it's how the car reacts when in it and you made a good point dyno don't mean shit it's how it reacts. ���� Subaru used that turbo for a reason because of the characteristic it makes for daily driving and I just believe if it was setup right are cars could utilize it seeing how the motors are similar but be living the frs fa20 is better����

So back to the point of the thread. A smallish turbo, but not to small, around 9-10 psi and E85 will get you to the realms of WRX numbers on torque in roughly the same places. With the higher gearing and lighter weight it will be much quicker though. Numbers and drag racing don't really mean much though but whatever floats your boat. A SS commodore with a LS3 in stock form gives me a run for my money on the drags but around a track the differences are massive. And with about half the power?

You'd be basically building a entire kit bar the turbo to my understanding. The wastegate would have to be sorted as well. And I have no idea on how it'd be in the upper end as I haven't seen anyone try it. Modified Garrets work well. I'm sure over the next few years people will be wrecking/upgrading turbos from WRX's and might be cool to try it for something to do. I'm sure someone more knowledgable could better explain what would the the drawbacks/positives.

Bro I think we're on the same page but maybe u misread me earlier I stated the drag concept was just a example, maybe I should put it this way. My boss hates my car cause it's underpowered he's a big block guy. And I've showed him 86trd griffon and he still was arrogant about it even though with a na motor and weight reduction it posted a .58 on the track witch is fucking fast for a 200 hp motor. So I guess what I'm saying I'm just trying to think out side the box maybe different but maybe it would surprise someone.

Yep I think we are. just took a little to get there. You want drivability with punch. Exactly what I wanted too hence why I got what I got. A Jackson Racing SC gives good punch without the lag but it is a supercharger and I'm a turbo guy. Also they aren't sold in Australia and shipping and import duties absolutely destroy the pricetag on imported goods. A water to air Intercooler vs Front Mount is light and day in terms of turbo drivability. Personally those would be the kits I'd look at if you want an all rounder.

Yea looked to a supercharger but most people don't much above the 300hp mark and from the graph I posted earlier with the supercharger hep got about 350 hp but torque never got above 250 an that wasn't until around like 6000 rpms I believe and this was on a c38 that's why I was purposeing this cause I think turbo is the way to go. But trying anyway to minimize the lag!! Hell I've seen a chart of a fully built fa20 with a Stroker and supercharger and the curve just doesn't seem as nice as the wrx curve. But he'll it's making like above 400 whp il see if I can find it but the torque is just what I don't like on it

And looking at the JRSC graph you posted. Those are very healthy numbers all over. It'd be a pleasure to drive. On a daily basis and for the track that'd be an awesome car. Apart from what I got that was honestly the only other FI kit that I was even considering. All the others had to many issues and letdowns. Luckily I was in touch with the people doing the RnD for my turbo kit for a few years so when I got the chance to get one. I took it.

Well after looking at it it is a nice linear curve but still not sure seems a little low in the low rpms

You gotta remember too that we have alot less car to move than a WRX and only 2 wheels to do it. The Turbo 86 I posted earlier. You honestly couldn't ask for much more than that. How often are you honestly driving at 1500 rpm making pulls? It is great to know that whatever speed you are doing, that boost is available and you don't have to let it build for ages. What the graphs don't show though is the response. Going from 8 Feet of Front mount piping and whatever to under a foot with the intercooler included is massive on response differences.

I don't think there's anything wrong with either supercharger hell I'd drive em both lol just comparing them and I see things that I'm wondering can be improved. Concept wise a electric motor can blow away a gas motor because the torque is always there, only comparing to similar car of course. Ever seen tesla take off. Vroom

The other thing is drivability. At the track I probably run different tyre setups and different driving styles to the guys with Supercharges and NA cars. Converting all those numbers into stuff I understand is a pain. You people and your imperial system.

Well take into consideration at 3500 RPM it's making 198 Ftlbs (270ish Nm) Thats alot really. There's not many people and or cars built to handle that at wide open throttle in any level of corner. Hell on 8Psi I run roughly 250Nm (185 ftlbs) on a 90/91 tune. At the track I discovered I simply have to run decent width R-spec Semis or I cannot use the power at all. A 225 Nitto NT05 had wheel spin. On every corner even at half throttle. With 255 NT01's its excellent. More tyre would definitely be a waste of time though as I could not use it all.

And the Teslas. Saw my first when I was on holidays in the big smoke. Really weird seeing this thing peeling away from you. 100% silently.

Lol yea weird right! So I'm trying to figure out what your saying?? Too much torque in the corner is bad right! Or just on a turbo car? Please elaborate

Man I wish this thing would refresh on my phone without having to exit out every time lol

Grip limits how much power you can put down of course. It really depends on what kind of driving you are doing and on what kind of corners. My advice is really to find a couple people with options you like and try them out. Don't get to hung up on the numbers of the WRX since our car is much lighter, 2 wheel drive and has higher gearing. Even low boost makes this car very lively. Especially on the track if you pushing your limits. The numbers mean little as well since for example my dynos are all very low reading with no exaggerations. My personal final dynos were not after the car was cooler, in a hot dyno booth, with a small fan. Now there are other dyno tuners in town who are slower in both a straight line and on the track who claim to have 210-220kw (295) at the wheels to my 170kw (235). It's just a shame you weren't local so that you could try my car. So far few from people have been convinced to buy a kit like mine after feeling mine and the tuners car and even had a fair number of people sell so called top kits from other manufacturers and change over. At the end of the day I can't tell you what would best suit you. Thats still up to you. It's good to see you trying to seek out better options to whats generally available though. Without that I wouldn't have a FI car right now. They basically saw an Avo and basically facepalmed.

Also doesn't the phone have a refresh button somewhere? Or are you on some sort of mobile app or something

The reason why we dont have as much torque as another engine or what not is because the mass of our pistons, forged, different CR, length of stroke etc...are still relatively the same.

Torque = RxF. Force is applied at a radius R away from the axis of rotation, thus change the F or the R and youll produce more torque.

i.e. forced induction (most common answer) or stroker kit, or both.

Well thanks for the input problem lyes in the fact that it's not a video game you can't just go to a shop and change out every piece until you get the perfect car. I know I would like a simple boosted. Be honest I'd love a 250whp/200lbs na if it ever happens that way no boost just pure sweetness I do think as soon as I can get to it I still might try the gt2259 wish some company with the means could just swap one on their r n d car and see what happens lol

The problem there is that it's a twin scroll and may have different dimensions. There's not to many twin scroll 86's around. Are they really a gt2259? Isn't that a turbo that was on RB's?

The WRX and STI have taller effective gear ratios and bigger tire diameters. Unless my understanding of gears is wrong you can't change the shape of the torque curve with gear ratios so it's kind of a moot point anyway. Actually, it's all a moot point. Beyond the 86mm bore and stroke that the motors share, the piston tops, CR, head and fueling are different, hence why the motors behave completely differently, and will continue to do so even with the same turbo.

http://i.imgur.com/fFl4Xra.png

Yea I agree with that and from what I can tell it a gt2259 now I could be wrong but I've look and look and keep coming up with the same answer even though there are a few people who believe it might be a special model or sum thing to that effect but from the pictures it is twin scroll

Well found this so this might look even better cause you advice was a gt28 and their saying its close to it with max hp of 340 and 375 lbs

And

I'm not sure that the dyno corrects torque. For example you'd make a ton of torque in first compared to 6th. Inertia also plays different factors with ratios. I'm not a dyno tuner, all I know is that the numbers don't mean much. My car on the same tune and dyno can vary by 10kw and 20 Nm of torque with different tyres and air temps pretty easily.

Here is my GT2860RS , peak 240lbs at 4500 rpm (MustangDyno)

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...pslirp8byb.png

For comparison this turbo has 47/60mm Compressor

See from what I see I like this curve on low boost but also its hard to tell due to not show rpms but if I'm correct it shows no thing till after three thousand which is weird and if so that means More lag down low??

Repost for comparison see how torque is about 200 at like 2300 rpms this was the wrx on e85 mgt2259 fully stock