If 370Z's cost that much here, there's no way any of us would be looking at the FT86... :bellyroll:

too true!!

I would be getting a 370z if it wasn't 70K with mild options drive away.

Hm, so how long have you been working for Toyota?
whatever they are paying you to promote their stupid marketing decisions in Australia, it is way too much.

stumbled on this website and thread because i was interested in the ft86 (im in aus). Read as WAS. If there is some turbo STI model for 45 - 55k yeah id be keen. Rather a second hand IS350 for 65k.
NA version ft86 at 35, yeah id pay that. but if the speculation here is true, then I'm not touching it. The premise of a cheap, sports car with the enthusiast in mind, would be destroyed with a price tag of over 35k.

I guess to be clear, I was speaking in terms of US price. My pricing was based on the idea that if indeed this car is going to be offered three ways (Toyota, Scion, Subaru), don't you think they might have Scion at the very low end, Subaru as a mid level offering, and then Toyota at the high end, meaning leather, NAV, etc ??

What does everyone else think? Will there be three different brands of this car?

No, there will be 2 brands in any one country. Corretc me if I'm wrong guys but-

US (Canada?) - Scion or Subaru
Everywhere else - Toyota or Subaru

From all accounts, the Scion here in US and Toyota everywhere else will be identical, aside from badges but as everything else on here is, this is all speculation.

Lol

- Australia has a significant Automotive Industry, big enough for it to have 3 design centers and R&D HQ from 3 BIG OEMs.

- Australia has a BIG array of automotive suppliers, with capable skills and knowdledge comparable to other countries' level.



The CONS are.
- Manufacturing Unions, Australian Unions are unrealistic. They are blind to that of other nation's manufacturing policies hence they dont see the negativities they bring to the industry... such as OEMs more incline to make plants over seas... which affects the amount of cars that can be manufactured in Australia.... Manufactured Cars in Australia = cheaper, no import tax etc.

- Australian Labour workers get paid WAY MORE than chinese, thai, south african workers.... big NO NO to OEMs also.

- Australian population and market for cars.... TINY compared to USA, Germany, Japan etc... where its common to see 300K sales of a particular car model... In Australia a successful year would see around 100K cars sold.

- Australians do not get paid much more than Americans.
American average salary/wage (white collar workers) is around 60K USD. Australian (white collar workers) is around 65K AUD. And AUD is pretty much same if not slightly more than USD at the moment.

Average Australian blue collar worker however has higher wage than their American counter parts... due to the requirements of the Unions and such. For example, I know a Road, Construction worker who gets paid 100K AUD... with no college/university qualifications.

The FT-86 is no way near an Impreza... what you talking about? It would be released 2 years ago if its simply a a 2WD Impreza, Engineering and Evaluating it would be zinch.... not the case.


It is TINY, LOW to the ground, RWD...


I suppose an S2000 is a RWD, lower to the ground version of a standard Civic?



The FT-86 is a nice looking Coupe, light weight, RWD... with "not bad" Power Output... 200hp...

Although I must admit this is based on the rumours that it has 200hp.... I won't buy it if it has 170hp or considerably less than 200hp.


I'd buy the 2013 Subaru WRX STi.... apparently its going to be so beasty.

LOL there are more unemployed people in the USA than there are people in TOTAL in australia..
american SALARY average gets pushed up significantly by certain overpaid proffesions. show me a bell chart with their earnings, or at least tell me the standard deviation for the salaries in the states for the white collar.. its easy to put a spin on anything with simple averages, in reality averages mean shit compared to the whole spread
3 OEM manufacturers.. and how many cars are actually designed here? and how many cars are actually assambled here? or made here? if there were plants here from ~10 manufacturers, that would be impressive.. this isnt europe mate, where it doesnt matter where what factory is, its all still on the same continent, and you can still physically drive to the town where the factory is from anywhere else in europe.. this is a island.. if it isnt made here, it has to be shipped here.. and there is your problem.

it's a shortened impreza with lowered springs! :lol:

Come on man, you know enough about the car by now, $43k is instant fail!
I don't care how you slice it, WRX/GTI/ralliart > FT86. But hey, I'm just a realist.

Not to mention the bullshit gubment protection these 'american' companies get here. It's disgusting. NZ has the idea, and cars are heaps cheap there, but no one to protect there.....

WRX/Ralliart = FT86
GTI does not fit in the equation

Does here in Aust... And fits in here: gti > ft86 lol!

We'll just wait for the car, and if it is $43k, they fail soooo hard. Seriously.

if you're talking about price point, it fits.

other than that...GTI is just a bargain Audi A3.

to explain the perspective, the FT86 is essentially a bargain s2000 at this point with what we understand the specs to be. In regards to Weight and Balance (with FT86 having the better theoretical balance)

Will you compare GTI to an S2000 ? I wouldn't.
Performance you go with FT86.
Sporty family car you go with GTI.

But still, the performance bargain is the WRX 265.

And with regards to what the driver is looking for GTI will win the overall package category. I'm relatively sure it will BEAT ALL the competition in its price point in its "package", but will certainly lose in performance to every single other car in its price point around a circuit (Genesis coupe, Ralliart, WRX, Mazdaspeed 3, Miata, ft86)

I would compare rallyart/wrx to a golf r32 rather than gti. Gti lost it's heritage and what it used to be. R32 is more in relation to the original gti these days

It always comes down to price, and theres quite a few cars out here at that price point that *will* be better value (both performance and spec) and gti is just one of them. $30k like they first said = win. Big win!!! $40k like rumors said = serious fail. Especially for the nil luxuries, not even a cd player spec like they say.

*waits for more price/spec details*

S2k was ~$75k here, so I wouldn't compare too lol! We got no more s2k either :( And S2K failed here at that price too....

Can't wait to drive this car, see the spec and price. It would want to be seriously good for $43k here.... Don't think it will TBH...

We up to golf R now, HEAPS better than R32! ;)

And yes, only ~$10k more than the GTI. I drove both today actually, along with the Touareg 180 I want to replace my Prado VX D4D with.

the R is a little more then R if you want decent options.

Drive away its about 60K

Price point it compares to all the cars Type R listed above. Can't believe its going to compete with the WRX and alike at price point.l

Cbf explaining Australian automotive economy... If you want my view do a search.

I think this dealer was high balling. Firstly, they don't have a solid price yet, so they're of course going to quote some outragous figure so that the factory doesnt undercut them on RRP. They do have to honour any quote they give, remember?

Next item is that I was told by a show girl at the motor show this year that the base model was going to start at 35k. considering this girl wouldnt have known the car from a bar of soap, I'd trust her to pass on what the manufacturer wanted to, moreso than a dealer.

Finally, who the crap would buy this car if if was really closely priced as a WRX? I'm an enthusiast and I even struggle to justify that. The MX5 is a soft top remember and they're inherently more expensive to design and manufacture, and they're happy with their little niche they've found.

^^^ yep, my point exactly!!!

again, we need a like button on this forum :)

There is. LOL

Sometimes that facebook thing shows on the bottom right of the person's comment. Lol

My thoughts exactly, I completely agree with Type R as well if they price this at 43k it WILL fail.

Your stating information out of context.
USA have 250+ Million people, Australia has 21~23 Million people.

10:1 ratio.



Australia's Unemployment rate of Under 5% is Exaggerated, because part time employment is accounted for. Example: if Joe Smith worked 2 hours last week for his $55~60 dollar paycheck, he is considered employed.

Go to macrobusiness.com.au, and update yourself with current economy down in Australia.


I worked in the states for 2 years, which meant I lived there too. My coleagues of the same experience as I, earned approximately the same as I did.
The difference?
Cost of living there is dramatically cheaper, except for medical expenses and general services.

I drove a Subaru Impreza here in Oz, and over there (states), my coleagues drove Porsche Boxters, Mustangs, IS250s, WRXs etc of the same salary I was earning. Why?.... because they are cheap there.
If you earned 80K AUD living in Oz, you are doing "OK".
In the States, you earn 80K, you are more than comfortable and WELL OFF.

Of course you should know why they are cheap over there.





Regarding OEMs in Australia.
WTH are you mentioning Germany?
Germany is a leading nation for Automotive, with over 100 years of designing, developing autmotives.
Australia has about 20-25 years of development, Ford and Holden have more years under their belt, but in terms of design from ground up. Maybe 25 years or so...

And Germany has 2-3 times more population, have about 10 surrounding countries which they can "truck" deliver cars, and these countries account for about more than 200 million people combined... hence 10 times more market than Australia.

I dont understand what is your point?

Of course Australia isnt in the same league as Germany.


No one said they are.
What I can tell you is, Australia has automotive expertise that is appreciated and respected by OEMs from other Nations, including Germany, Japan and USA.

You'd be shocked on how Australia Automotive R&D/Engineering actually makes it to a global scale.

And when the time comes that Australian Manufacturing collapse, the Automotive Knowledge amongst the local experts and companies will more likely be transferred to nearest manufacturing giant... China, Thailand. And most of the R&D staff will relocate to their mother OEMs in USA, Japan, Germany etc.


How many cars are designed in Oz.
From top of my head.
- Camry/Aurion (are co-designed globally)
- Ford Territory
- Ford Falcon and its variants
- Holden Commodore
- Holden Cruze (are co-designed globally)
- Magna (Finish now, but was co-designed globally)
- Chevrolet Camaro (had design/evaluation input from Holden local)
- Corolla (Previous models, had local engineers worked on it)
- Holden/Ford/Toyota also have employees from their R&D/Engineering who Go and Live overseas and work for their "mother" OEMs on various projects.

And in the future, there's about 3-4 vehicles that have potential to be co-designed by Australians, due to their popularity here.

So for a Nation with 20 Million people, Australia isnt as shabby as you think they are. Knowledge here is on a Global scale.

I am a BIG WRX STi fan, in fact I would of bought one last year. But put off, until I see how the FT-86 turns out.

And then I saw the next gen 2013 WRX STi and WOW, rumours saying its going to be about length of a Yaris Hatch with width of the current WRX and powered by a 1.6 turbo charge boxer.... pushing over 300hp.... thats INSANE.



In regards to the "shortenned" Impreza platform.
Shortenning a platform, changes the dynamics of the chassis.
Lowering it to the ground, further adds to the dynamic changes. Then you change from 4WD to RWD, then its a whole new ball game.

Manufacturing wise its cheaper, because most parts can be carried over... but performance/handling feels like a new chassis altogether.

I like to compare it to a human athlete...
Would a 6'5, 200 pound, 5% body fat who has high fitness level perform the same way as that 5'5, 200 pound, 30% body fat guy who hasnt run for 2 years?

no....

But guess what, same skeleton structure, with varying lengths in limbs and height.



All cars have the same skeletal structure, well MOST of them anyways. Dynamics and handling are adjusted based on Drive train (RWD, AWD, FWD), length, track width, ride height (center of gravity) etc.



And Dont get me started on the GTI.... its the lazy, non-enthusiasts man's sports car.

Its won many awards because its daily driver friendliness.... which means its SOFT.

Its Front Wheel Drive, tiny cabin space, nice engine, 50K AUD drive away with decent options... and people buy them because they are euro snobs and its a trendy thing at the moment.

The Golf R, is the minimum car I would buy from VW.... its 4WD, nice engine... still tiny cabin, but the 4WD atleast makes it drivable in the snow and long drives.... and only 5-7K extra over the GTI.


So, HELL NO, 50K for a GTI.... WRX is a good purchase, but I would prefer the STi....

lets compare the GTI and "Rumoured" FT-86
- Hatch - Coupe
- 3/5 doors - 2 doors
- 2 liter, 155kW/280Nm Turbo - 2 liter, 150kW/225Nm NA
- 1360kg - 1150kg (rumoured)

GTI is also 6-7K AUD more expensive.
Performance wise, not too far off from each other.
Looks wise, hatch or coupe?, traditional sports cars are coupe...
FT-86 is lighter and lower center of gravity, easier to throw around corners and swerve around traffic at high speeds.

Servicing cost?, my friend paid $3000 AUD for his 30K kilometer sevice for his GTI and most of the changes required fluid replacement... I'm still shocked by this one.



I have this motto.... Coupes or Convertibles are better weekend drivers due to their uniqueness, sportiness. My MR2 still most fun car to drive down the mountains.

By next year, hopefully I can have the FT-86 next to either a WRX Sti or a Liberty/Legacy Wagon GT.... need space for the dogs... and oh, the family. :-)

Putting serious hat on for a minute, do yourself a favor and take a new one for a test drive. Seriously. It works seemlessly, firm but smooth. It's a better drive than both the ralliart and wrx. But its not what I would call soft....

And the gti's are not $50k?, there's 3 here in Darwin for ~$42-43k drive away (all DSG), and there is a fully spec'd one with sunroof and leather here for $47k drive away. Cabin space is very good actually, I had plenty of room in front and back, and I'm 6'2". Seemed more room than my honda euro actually, but that wouldn't be hard. But how is a tiny coupe going to have more room than this, if this is one of your points? Practicality. Another reason why FT86 will fail against ralliart/wrx/gti at this $40k+ price. The Scirocco R will be ~$50k drive away too, which will no doubt be another nail in the coffin.

As I said before, the FT86 would want to be super special if it wants to compete with this $40k+ market... and you know it. :)

http://bgilchrist.files.wordpress.co...1245384435.jpg
wow what are you on about? who mentioned germany?
you know the difference between europe and germany right?

what i said is that there are more unemployed people in the states than people all together in australia..
and im not even gonna go in to the rest of it.. you are wasting my time

and really? 80K is well off? damn i should move to America then and retire haha

EDIT
just to clear it up, im not saying australia has no knowledge, or capabilities to POTENTIALLY manufacture cars. what i said is that we are a nanny state, with ridiculously high prices for everything and that we import (by ship) most vehicles.. and that therefore we will never have fairly priced cars..

Look at the attactment.

This is just a 3 door with the options i would want.

60K drive away!!!

The reason you can get one for 47k in NT is cause it would be either a 2009 or 2010 model.

remove park assist if you have a rearview camera, remove gps if you have a AUX socket and a phone that has GPS on it.. why have so many redundant features? they wont boost your resale value.
this was mentioned in another thread (about AV) and i agree there, all i want is something that has aux in (prefferably with integration for iDevices so i can use the steering wheel) a USB port and no cd, no dvd, hell not even a screen (why have a screen if i plug/mount a ipad in or the samsung 7" tablet?) and off aya go ;)

yeah but on every post haha, and not to link to facebook, just to stay within the forums

$13600 in extras on a $40k car lol! pretty flash gti!

Never been a fan of nav, why the hell would anyone pay a few thousand on one is way beyond me?

That is easily golf R money right there, which is better spec'd to start with, or $10k more than a scirocco R... Let alone Sti/evo...

$3000???!!! i paid $400 for the 30k km service for mine, a free loan car was included too.

if your friend's car needed all fluid change, either he trashed the car or there are defects which should be under warranty i assume.

btw it's my first post here after looking here for a looooong time. it's only a few weeks away till Tokyo Motor Show and i can't wait!!

35 years ago the original GTI was a fwd hatchback with a bigger engine than the bread and butter. which is basically what the current GTI is.

the R32 (or R) being 4wd etc were never what the original GTI was.

getting back on topic, personally my view is (or my hope is), FT86 to come in 2 models. a basic starting at $35k + onroad and a loaded for around $40-45k + on road.

there is no way it will sell at Corolla/Rukus $$ and anything over $50k is dreaming (megane or Sirocco R are much better car selling near that price point).

in terms of powers and feature, FT86 will be similar to Civic Type R (FN2). i just hope Toyota is not as greedy and starts at $39,990 + on road (that's not what i call affordable sports car).

just give me a basic car at cheap price with air con, steelies, no airbags and even stereo. i am getting aftermarket stuff anyway.

Yeah, I missed this comment....
Drop a zero off that and I'll believe you. :) And if there was something wrong, they got 3 year unlimited km warranty.

30k service is just an oil change and a brake fluid flush. ;) And it's 15k km service intervals, unlike toyota's 10k km services.

Have you ever got a service from Toyota? Like most dealers, they cost a few hundred more than other mechanics. Try owning a Prado! It's pure rape here in Darwin, I got my Honda 70k service done here yesterday, Honda wanted $400, I got it done for $135... And that's for a minor service only (honda only change oil, no filter or farkall). My Prado is up to it's 110k km (minor) service, booked in with my mech for next week already, but I'll get a quote off toyota and post them both for shits and giggles. :)

But anyway, they are all as bad as each other......

i'd just pay the cap price with the FT then take it to my mechanic once warranty ends.

Off topic slightly, I'm very happy there are more and more oz members. I was worried there for a while when there was me+2more in Brisbane. Now there are much more, meanin by the time the car comes out, we can actually have proper meets once in a while
:D

:p yeha ozzies!!

Well got another update from a diff dealer...

so lets hope its 31999 :P or 30009 :P but i would be happy if it was 34999

I swear I wouldnt be suprised if it was $300,000 :P

Yep, it better start with a 3 lol!!!

On a sidenote, I got a quote on a Lexus ISF that I can't refuse. Damn test drives! :(

rofl!! an ISF!!! wow dude your fucken loaded why they hell you looking at getting an FT86 if you can afford that and also worriying about the price point...

Well the first person said price will be 39999 so i am guessing he was right :S...