What type of tires would you have on an OEM performance model (TRD/STI)?

[RaceR]

Jeremy Clarkson says the stock Prius tires are the masterstroke about the GT86. ( jump to 1.19)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCKYCntiaSU"]Toyota GT 86 review - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube[/ame]



Road and Track tested the performance models, and did not seem that impressed with the added grip that the modifications and new tires made. (Michelin tires in the size of 215/40/ZR 18. Probably Pilot Super Sport since they are available in that size and Primacy HP are not)

The Cost of Higher Speeds
Get out on the Spanish race circuit and you quickly feel the differences in the car’s behavior; the tires being most noticeable. They point into the turns more sharply than the standard covers and it feels as though the car is turning around your backbone, which is a classy combination. But there’s a cost and that’s because you always drive to the apparent grip. So while this development model holds on better than the standard car, you have to drive it with greater precision. At high speeds the back end tries to get away from you quite suddenly and while the new limited slip differential gives better control, you can’t help thinking that the standard car is more fun.

So, what type of wheels and tires would you like to see on a performance version? Or maybe on the future performance packages?

[RaceR]

I would give a crap about performance tires. This car is about fun. And tire noise and emissions should be kept at a minimum while maintaining comfort. A lowered performance model would probably benefit even more not going with performance tires since a stiff sidewall would take away even more comfort.
Im thinking, road tires for the road, and super sticky tires on the track. Like Z1 Star Spec. Or in my case, Toyo R888 to compete in the AutoX class the car would be in. Point is, I would most likely not be happy with the performance tires Toyota/Subaru would give me, so I would rather have some good and fun tires for the road, and buy an extra set of super sticky tires for competition driving.

The only reason I see why a performance version should have sticky tires is to keep up with rivals in comparison tests. So I would like the performance version to have an option with 245/40-17 Michelin Pilot Super Sport on 8 inch wide super light wheels. Toyota/Subaru should give out that car to the journalists when they are doing laptime comparisons.
I would have Primacy HP 215/45-17 on new super lightweight 7-inch wide wheels as the default choice tough.
It would also be nice to see an option with 215/40-18 Michelin Pilot Super Sport at about the same price as the 17-inch package with Super Sport tires.

[wparsons]

One thing to keep in mind is that the FR-S has the most aggressive (tail happy) suspension tuning from the factory. The BRZ fits in the middle, and the GT86 is the "safest".

Comparisons between the FR-S and BRZ always seem to find the BRZ is faster because it isn't as ready to hang the tail, and inspires more confidence in high speed tricky corners.

Motor trend did a test where they ran an FR-S on Dunlop Z1's and were almost 2.5 seconds faster:



I can't find the original article, but they also noted that the car had better feel and feedback on the dunlops too.

[jesperswe]

Originally Posted by wparsons

One thing to keep in mind is that the FR-S has the most aggressive (tail happy) suspension tuning from the factory. The BRZ fits in the middle, and the GT86 is the "safest".
.

I thought that GT86 and FR-S would have the same suspension setup, and only the BRZ would be diffrent?

[White Shadow]

Okay, so lets put Prius tires on the car so that owners can play "drift hero" all around their neighborhood. Terrific.

If you actually want to go fast (without losing grip), you need capable tires. But then I guess people would complain that the car has too much grip for it's level of power. So we've come full circle--put low-grip tires on it so everyone can feel like a drift hero. LOL

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Okay, so lets put Prius tires on the car so that owners can play "drift hero" all around their neighborhood. Terrific.

If you actually want to go fast (without losing grip), you need capable tires. But then I guess people would complain that the car has too much grip for it's level of power. So we've come full circle--put low-grip tires on it so everyone can feel like a drift hero. LOL

Idk. With the low grip tires if you accidentally overcook a turn it is a smooth and somewhat and somewhat predictable tail slide. With grippy tires it seems like the review says it almost more of a snap oversteer. The first option, while it may produce so idiots, seems safer in the end to me. Make performance tires an option, as those smart enough not to **** around would be the majority of those that select that upgrade I think.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by wparsons

One thing to keep in mind is that the FR-S has the most aggressive (tail happy) suspension tuning from the factory. The BRZ fits in the middle, and the GT86 is the "safest".

As far as I know. FR-S is the most tailhappy. BRZ have most understeer. GT86, not sure but, but all tests seems to say it has less understeer compared to the BRZ. Might be differences around the world?
I have seen some spring rates on this forum saying the GT86 might have more understeer compared to BRZ. BUT we did not know anything about the dampers, nor if the source is 100% reliable. Id rather believe some tests than some springs rates from someone.

Best motoring shows GT86 and having a some "oversteer capacities". While the BRZ just understeered, making it slower. GT86 was the faster car and also the more fun and engaging car to drive.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te7F-SPV8eg"]ç*‘波サーã‚*ットアタックbyä¸*谷明彦 86/BRZ比較 - YouTube[/ame]

Motortrend did a test where BRZ was faster than the FR-S.

Some other tests seem to be back and forth depending on the driver.

I know I would prefer the GT86 without a doubt. And I think that stock GT86 will improve more with performance tires in terms of lap times compared to the stock BRZ. (Less power oversteer at corner exit thanks to more grip, but easier to reach all the tires limits since it has less understeer)
But all this is irrelevant, because the suspension the performance versions will not be the same.
But having more power in a stock GT86/FRS would be win for me. Even with the same tires. And I hope that the GT86 still maintains its handling character in a TRD/performance version.

And the Prius tires, are as far as I know the "performance" prius tires. They have more grip than most econoboxes around here anyway.. But yeah, they are ECO-tires.. Touring tires.
But how little grip difference are there between those and a set of 205 performance tires that sport cars were equipped with back in late 80s early 90s? Probably not much.
Modern performance tires is just another thing to make cars less alive. I don't get people who complain about modern cars being less fun, but than go out and buy performance tires that makes the car handle like its on rails. Only thing you have to to is point it towards the next apex. Jump on the brakes and let ABS to the job. Jump on the accelerator at apex and not think about loosing grip at all.
No wonder why old cars where more fun. You actually had to drive them with more finesse and skill. Working more with the balance when driving on the limit. Under braking, acceleration and cornering.
Modern high performance tires takes away a lot of that in a 200-250hp RWD and balanced car. Atleast in my opinion.

[so26]

They know that the stock tires were fine for the street but not for the track; that is why they made sure that 4 wheels would fit in the back. I for one am glad that they took route.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by finch1750

Idk. With the low grip tires if you accidentally overcook a turn it is a smooth and somewhat and somewhat predictable tail slide. With grippy tires it seems like the review says it almost more of a snap oversteer. The first option, while it may produce so idiots, seems safer in the end to me. Make performance tires an option, as those smart enough not to **** around would be the majority of those that select that upgrade I think.

I'm all for making performance tires optional. I mean, I think the car should come with summer tires on it, but at least the option would be nice. It's no big deal though because tires are easy and relatively inexpensive to swap out.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

I'm all for making performance tires optional. I mean, I think the car should come with summer tires on it, but at least the option would be nice. It's no big deal though because tires are easy and relatively inexpensive to swap out.

That's the other thing too. Most of us have specific performance tires we want. OE performance tires it seems are always mediocre performance and really expensive. But the option would be nice. Personally I'm sticking with the stock ones even with new wheels until I really bump up the power.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Okay, so lets put Prius tires on the car so that owners can play "drift hero" all around their neighborhood. Terrific.

If you actually want to go fast (without losing grip), you need capable tires. But then I guess people would complain that the car has too much grip for it's level of power. So we've come full circle--put low-grip tires on it so everyone can feel like a drift hero. LOL

Ill make a series of posts based on that and my thoughts around it.

That is the thing. If you want to go fast most people will end up adding performance tires with say 5-15% more grip and on occasions try going 5-20% faster around the corners compared to the non-performance tires.
Lets be real and honest here. How many people visiting this thread buys high performance tires only to drive at the exact same speed as with the Prius tires without ever going faster? They only upgrade to performance tires for the worse comfort, worse fuel consumption and shorter tire life right? And because they want to be safer
Yeah, people might have a slight chance at avoiding crashes better on a public road with performance tires, but with normal safe driving that should not be a concern. Who are really that paranoid that they buy performance tires for safety reasons? I have never meet any.

Personally, I don't see the big fuzz about going 5-15% faster when you look at all the downsides.
-Car would be less engaging to drive (Okay, kinda subjective. Some like driving trains on rails)
-Car would easier feel underpowered (Less driving input and skill would be needed. You can just floor the pedal after apex, and the car would not be that adjustable with the throttle)
-Not as easy to powerslide, if you want to
-Oversteer would be snappier, and not that predictable.
-Accidents would easier happen at higher speeds (if going off in a corner)
-More wear and tear on the most components (brakes, bushings, suspension etc.. due to more cornering grip and higher g-force)
-More tire noise
-Less comfort (harder side wall, and often smaller sidewall)
-Higher fuel consumption (due to higher rolling resistanse)
-Tires that wear out faster (at least most performance tires do)

I easily get that people who are track driving and who use the same tires for both (competition) track driving and normal road use would opt for performance tires. Primacy HP are not competitive in terms of grip, and probably don't cope that well with high temperatures. Performance tires makes full sense!
But for most people, I think its a waste and that they are better of with some normal tires (aka. "low grip" ECO-tires).
Those few (looking at the overall picture of buyers) who are competitively track driving would in most cases buy tires they prefer anyway, or buy tires that are better suited for their class. Those who are track driving just for fun once in a while, could easily just stick with Primacy HP in my opinion.. Or just upgrade the tires for whatever reason they have.

[RaceR]

Who would you rather meet on the street? The ECO-tires driver, or the performance tires driver?
(point might be a little exaggerated).

ECO-tires scenario:
"Drifter": Some kiddo in a roundabout having some sideways fun exiting a roundabout at 20mph without much effort.
"Grip driver": Some kiddo driving through twisties at 40mph feeling the limits of grip. And who are able to easier push the car to oversteer or understeer below the point where all tires are at max grip. And if overdriven, easier to correct.

OR driver on high performance tires:
Drift: Some kiddo in a roundabout doing sudden wheel maneuvers and hard sudden power-on to loose the grip at 25mph.
GRIP: Some kiddo grip driver with their performance car (TRD, STI, performance package) and performance tires doing 50mph through the twisties, driving on the edge of grip where the loss of grip are more sudden and less predictable.

I know I would prefer being on the road with the "ECO-tires driver".
Personally, I would rather drive more like the "ECO-tires driver" if I was in the mood for it and the conditions where right. I would also have more fun doing it too. But we all know there are people who drive above their limits where there are people nearby. Grippier tires will in most circumstances result in even harder crashes.

[RaceR]

For those who says, performance tires are for safety (in a 200-250hp car) and the Primacy HP tires have little grip.
Sorry, I don't believe it!
Look back at say the 60s. People could basically drift their RWD cars on wet pavement pretty effortlessly at 15 mph if they wanted. But they drove slower and within the limits.

People now days drive much faster. But basically, most people adjust the speed to the tires (in slippery conditions). Especially drivers who drive spirited adjust the grip to the tires. Most are driving with a safe margin of error of what they think are the limits based on their experiences with grip.
Personally I think the limits have grown above the levels where it should be (talking about dry grip conditions).

Tire grip comparisons and classes are just relative compared to other tires.
If Primacy HP had the grip of Pilot Super Sport. And Pilot Super Sport had say 40% more grip. The typical grip lovers would go for the tires with 40% extra grip and call the other tires for "low grip" tires.. Tires we today consider very grippy.
Its all relative.. "Low grip ECO-tires" today really are not low grip. Just feel the G-force those tires are able to generate. Just see how fatal crashes can be when people loose grip. Its a reason why safety have improved so much. Its just a circle. More grip, more speed, more safety, more weight, more hp.. .... but with the added HP you need more grip again, which gives you more speed, which needs more safety, which adds weight, and than you need more hp again...
In terms of more efficient and safe A to B transportation it makes sense (the safety and grip bit) In terms of driving fun.. It does not. That is basically why the FR-S/GT86/BRZ have received so much praise. Its not about the grip, its about driver feedback, its about being in control, its about making the car do what you want it to do, its about driving on the limits of grip. Its about balance.. Its about fun!
Just drive some older drivers car on the limit. Say E30 M3 on low grip tires and compare to the fun you have in a modern M3 on performance tires driving it on the limits of grip. How much have it really evolved in terms of what matters. FUN, enjoyment, driver excitement? But yet its so much faster on any medium sized/large sized track. And yet it has so much more grip..

I think the Primacy HP have more than enough grip already for the FR-S/86/BRZ
For the record I love grip driving. But just because I like grip driving does not mean I need the maximum of grip that tire technology has brought us to enjoy it.
For me, grip driving is just about utilizing the available grip. That is the fun of grip driving. It can be experienced without having the latest and most grippy tires. And as most readers of my posts here might have understood, I see many benefits of not having the latest and best in terms of maximum grip. Because at the end of the day, its all about fun!
Of course, winning is fun, so in competitions, you need competitive tires.

Thanks for reading...
*flamesuit on*

[White Shadow]

RaceR,

Wow, too many words in a row. I'll just reply by saying this:

The way I see it, the vast majority of FR-S/BRZ drivers probably wouldn't really drive faster on the streets just because they're riding on performance rubber. But for those who will drive faster, the car would be much easier to handle without the driver losing control like he might have on economy tires. Or let me put it another way--- my last few cars have come from the factory with high performance summer tires, but I used to swap them out for winter tires (before I had an SUV to use as a winter car). Well, I'd have to change the way I drive the car when it was on winter rubber....at least when I was driving through the mountains. If I tried to drive the car the same way on those mountain roads, I'd probably be dead by now. My point is simple--performance tires allow a driver to get more out of his car without losing traction. Sure, you can break any tire loose, but that's not the point. Even on a modestly-powered car like the FR-S/BRZ, you'd still be able to drive the car at 8/10ths with the right tires instead of being forced to drive it at 6/10ths because you're on economy tires with low grip.

BTW, I should also mention that I find no fun in drifting. It's just not my thing. I'd much rather push a car to it's traction limit rather than pushing it slightly beyond its limit and drifting the car all over the place.