Stock internals for FI track usage

[autoracer86]

How concerned should one be about the internals for a tracked FI gt86 making 250-300hp ?

If I am not mistaken oil starvation is a bigger worry than say rods/pistons. On the topic of oil I was hearing some mixed opinions on the effectiveness of a baffle plate and pickup tube.

Would one need something like a accusump at minimum ? Any reason to get accusump baffle plate and pickup tube ? Is there any "real" fix outside of a proper dry sump setup

PS I know there will be other supporting mods needed for cooling and what not just specifically wondering about the internals and oil at the moment

[halfwaytobedlam]

From what I've read on the forums, 250-300whp is pretty standard, although personally 300whp is getting on the high side. The transmission is more cause for concern as they are rated from Aisin to 220nm apparently.

I dont have a clear answer for the baffle and pickup tube, I guess it really depends on how sticky of a tire you're planning on running, the stickier the tyre (<200 treadwear) the more concern there is about oil pressure drops during a turn. Ultimately I do think they do have some benefit, though it isnt huge.

I would say to try and monitor your oil pressures on track and if they start to drop beyond what you're comfortable with then decide if you want to get an accusump etc. IIRC there aren;t many fixes; you can try looking into the Reimax oil pumps but some mixed data about those as well.

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by autoracer86

How concerned should one be about the internals for a tracked FI gt86 making 250-300hp ?

If I am not mistaken oil starvation is a bigger worry than say rods/pistons. On the topic of oil I was hearing some mixed opinions on the effectiveness of a baffle plate and pickup tube.

Would one need something like a accusump at minimum ? Any reason to get accusump baffle plate and pickup tube ? Is there any "real" fix outside of a proper dry sump setup

PS I know there will be other supporting mods needed for cooling and what not just specifically wondering about the internals and oil at the moment

To answer your question, no there is no real fix outside of a dry sump. Which, doesn't really exist in a feasible way for these cars.

KillerB Pickup Tube and choose your baffle you should be fine. Gen 1 cars aren't really impacted as much as Gen 2s with oil pressure drop from what you're seeing all over the internet.

I had a stock block on my Harrop SC, and ejected a rocker arm. So - fwiw it's a PITA to do but I would contemplate doing the rocker retainer arm kit so you don't have a stupid failure like that potentially take out the entire block

[Pat]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

Gen 2s with oil pressure drop from what you're seeing all over the internet.

Do you know how many documented failures there actually are due to this "issue"?

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by M0nk3y

To answer your question, no there is no real fix outside of a dry sump. Which, doesn't really exist in a feasible way for these cars.

KillerB Pickup Tube and choose your baffle you should be fine. Gen 1 cars aren't really impacted as much as Gen 2s with oil pressure drop from what you're seeing all over the internet.

I had a stock block on my Harrop SC, and ejected a rocker arm. So - fwiw it's a PITA to do but I would contemplate doing the rocker retainer arm kit so you don't have a stupid failure like that potentially take out the entire block

Can I ask how much power you were making with the Harrop setup.

I think I would go with a baffle and tube just for piece of mind but would be curious to see how much improvement they make.

[NoHaveMSG]

I'd recommend browsing the build threads to see what others have done. 99% of FI twins I have come across at the track were stock internals, usually around 250-260whp.

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Pat

Do you know how many documented failures there actually are due to this "issue"?

No and I don't really care to debate what you want to think/not think.

Plenty of information to develop your own conclusions if you want to search yourself. Not the thread here.

Originally Posted by autoracer86

Can I ask how much power you were making with the Harrop setup.

I think I would go with a baffle and tube just for piece of mind but would be curious to see how much improvement they make.

Probably ~270-290 whp give or take. 95mm with E85 at the time tuned pretty conservatively with Zach at CSG. We left some room on the table to go for reliability rather outright power...which well - didn't really succeed but not a turner fault at that point.

[Pat]

FWIW, I wasn't looking to debate anything. I was asking a genuine question.

[M0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Pat

FWIW, I wasn't looking to debate anything. I was asking a genuine question.

I know of one first hand torn down and it's a clear case of oil starvation.

Other people have logged with various baffles/etc and show a dip. Some show more severe drops in oil pressure while others show it's still "fine"

Half of the issue is RTV, other is oil pressure on long right hand turns. It appears the oil pump/relief is configured differently on the FA24s than it is on the FA20s, as well as pickup tube location is more rearward of the pan than the FA20s. Some theory is that oil is sloshing into the upper pan versus the lower pan coupled with a turn is causing cavitation/air within the pickup and a loss of pressure for a moment of time.

Really no "fix" yet - so until something resolves the issue at hand there are a bunch of theories still floating around

[Pat]

I'm also familiar with the RTV "issue". Do we know how many failures are directly caused by that?
I don't want to stick my head in the sand about any of this stuff. I want real data on total engine failures and their cause(s). If I can do something to prevent my engine from going kablooie I will. I just haven't seen that many cases of engine failure due to excess RTV or temporary low oil pressure yet.
Certainly, there is a lot of noise on the Internet about all of this. I just question the amount of concern people have until I see more than a handful of engines blowing up that we know are caused by low oil pressure and excess RTV.
Sorry for the threadjack, OP.

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by Pat

I'm also familiar with the RTV "issue". Do we know how many failures are directly caused by that?
I don't want to stick my head in the sand about any of this stuff. I want real data on total engine failures and their cause(s). If I can do something to prevent my engine from going kablooie I will. I just haven't seen that many cases of engine failure due to excess RTV or temporary low oil pressure yet.
Certainly, there is a lot of noise on the Internet about all of this. I just question the amount of concern people have until I see more than a handful of engines blowing up that we know are caused by low oil pressure and excess RTV.
Sorry for the threadjack, OP.

I'm just learning in this conversation but I doubt you're going to find any hard data. Everything I've seen seems to indicate that people have a lot of opinions but the actual engineering and data collection to understand the causes is scarce at best.

Don't sweat it though. Many other engine platforms have experienced these kinds of things over the years and only through things like racing in various forms did "solutions" pop up. Some were real solutions and some were just snake oil. It always seems like fundamentals are what drive the actual solutions.

For example, if bits of RTV are flowing through the system then we all know that this is a bad thing for proper lubrication. Fixing that would be a priority if it can actually be done. If oil is sloshing/cavitating then that's a tougher one to solve but verifying that it's happening at all may well be just as tough. Again, if it can be fixed then it wouldn't hurt things to prevent that problem. Rocker arm retainers may fix a rocker from exiting stage left but that might just push the strain point elsewhere which still might cause catastrophic failure. Only applying the "fix" and see what happens would give us any indication and even then that's only if this is a regular failure.

In the end, there are things that are tried and true and the rest is a crap shoot. Welcome to beta testing!

[autoracer86]

@M0nk3y thanks for putting me onto the rocker arm issue... Another thing I am worried about now lol

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by autoracer86

@M0nk3y thanks for putting me onto the rocker arm issue... Another thing I am worried about now lol

It's not super common and NA cars are not immune to it either. Valvetrain was updated in 14' FYI but can still happen.

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

It's not super common and NA cars are not immune to it either. Valvetrain was updated in 14' FYI but can still happen.

All of that just makes it more scary lol. I think a 250whp turbo build with some basic oil mods would work well enough.

Still looking to see if a accusump makes sense to add to the list as well