Innovate (Sprintex) Supercharger Owners Topic

[CK_Bladesmith]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

There is a very specific scenario (hiccup/missfire) we are seeing with a few select customers. You will need this configuration and meet these certain scenarios for this aspect to happen. (This does not affect 75mm pulley setups)



Parts on the vehicle

1. Innovate Supercharge with Intercooler

2. 70mm Pulley on The Supercharger

3. Flex Fuel Tune on the vehicle

4. Currently at about an E20-E30 mix (so mainly fuel but still some ethanol)



Logs in from vehicle

1. Car warmed up to about 80-90 degree Celsius

2. Intake temps around 15-25 degrees Celsius

3. Engine RPM around 5000 RPM

4. Engine Load around 0.75-0.85 (around 0 vacuum, so no boost 12-13 PSI, )



From what we are seeing, there is a hiccup/missfire that occurs in this scenario and I have a good idea of what it is. I will be verifying this over the next week (hopefully over the weekend) by installing a 70mm pulley on my personal vehicle which has the Innovate Kit of course. This way we can accurately reproduce this exact scenario and can run these exact conditions.



Running above 12-13 PSI with Direct Injection



I know there has been some problems that EcuTeK tuners around the world have been running into with respect to running PI/DI above 12-13 PSI. We did speak to EcuTeK about this a bit as we are tackling this from a completely different approach. It was a good conversation to understand the problems other tuners are running into and we did offer some hints into what we are doing to bypass these problems.



From what we have seen, most all tuners are either using a split PI/DI ratios to obtain optimal A/F ratios or pure PI approach. With the PI/DI approach at some point this is not scale-able, about 12-13 PSI. Now the pure PI approach is to just run pure PI (no DI at all under boost) and you can scale as needed but then you lose the ability to use DI effectively.



Now we (Delicious Tuning) have developed a technique with EcuTeK RaceROM that allows us to take full advantage of benefits of DI while being 100% scale-able. The OEM Manufacturers have spent millions if not billions of dollars developing these systems to improve their vehicles so we make sure to use them to their full potential. Even the new Subaru WRX comes with DI and DI only, and many manufacturers are following suit. Bye bye port injection, so you better get on board...



Here are just some of the reasons we use DI so extensively and some of the advantages of our tunes because of our in own house technique.

1. Cooler engine temperatures

2. Improved fuel economy

3. Tip-In knock elimination

4. Better, crisper throttle response

5. Smoother power delivery

6. More power with less total injector



As we have been doing for quite some time now we run our DI system to its full potential first and foremost and then add in PI as needed. This is much different approach and I believe something that only Delicious Tuning offers currently and something we are working with our lawyers on for an official Copyright.



As for running boost past 12-13 PSI with our technique described briefly above we have no problems running well above 12-13 PSI as we are 100% scale-able to 20+ PSI with no problems. Everyone is more than welcome to check out dyno charts in the MA Performance, Full Blown, FA20Club, JDL, Greddy, AVO, PTuning Turbo kits for more info on what we have accomplished.



Now with respect to stock injectors on this kit. We have not had a problem running completely stock injectors and fuel pumps on the Innovate Kits with 70mm pulley and intercooler. In fact with our DI->PI Technique (stock injectors) we can run turbo cars on E85 to about 360whp on a dynojet, so with that in mind there is plenty of room for the Innovate Kit to make power with stock injectors and room to spare. Hint hint...



Finally...



Hope that answers some questions, explains how our system works compared to others and answers concerns everyone might be having. Basically if you stay out of this particular range (stated above) you will not find yourself having any problems. It is definitely a unique situation we are working on as soon as we get a 70mm pulley on my personal vehicle.



Cheers,

William Knose

Delicious Tuning

My car runs only on 93 octane and has the hiccups happening. If needed I can send you some logs in the morning?

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by CK_Bladesmith

My car runs only on 93 octane and has the hiccups happening. If needed I can send you some logs in the morning?

X2.......been having the issue since my first flash which was the 8.58 tune. Thought it was all vacuum related. Fixed the one and only vacuum leak I could find. Still have the sputtering. Been dealing with it for a month now.

[CK_Bladesmith]

Originally Posted by Dustin

X2.......been having the issue since my first flash which was the 8.58 tune. Thought it was all vacuum related. Fixed the one and only vacuum leak I could find. Still have the sputtering. Been dealing with it for a month now.

Yeah I thought my bypass valve in the back of the charger wasn't functioning properly, but it works just fine. I'm not very worried about the sputtering, it's just an inconvenience.

[Dustin]

Same here. Looking forward to what Bill comes up with.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Same here. Looking forward to what Bill comes up with.

Definitely seems to be related to non-ethanol or very low ethanol tunes from what we have seen at very low loads and it definitely does not happen on the 75mm pulley as I tried my hardest to get it to happen tonight with no luck

Well we will be working on it as soon as we get the pulley on the car. Just stay out of the range for the time being (under low loads), otherwise just floor it.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[CK_Bladesmith]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

Definitely seems to be related to non-ethanol or very low ethanol tunes from what we have seen at very low loads and it definitely does not happen on the 75mm pulley as I tried my hardest to get it to happen tonight with no luck



Well we will be working on it as soon as we get the pulley on the car. Just stay out of the range for the time being (under low loads), otherwise just floor it.



Cheers,

William Knose

Delicious Tuning

Exactly what I do Bill, although that's probably why my fuel mileage sucks like it does :P. I'll swap to the 75mm pulley and see what happens tomorrow, just for my own curiosity. Appreciate everything Bill.

[mikalem]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

Definitely seems to be related to non-ethanol or very low ethanol tunes from what we have seen at very low loads and it definitely does not happen on the 75mm pulley as I tried my hardest to get it to happen tonight with no luck

Well we will be working on it as soon as we get the pulley on the car. Just stay out of the range for the time being (under low loads), otherwise just floor it.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

Can second - not sure I made it clear in the emails to you Bill but I never saw the behavior under WOT with that range, and didn't see it at all with the higher E content WOT or not. Waiting to see what results you get with the 70mm in your own testing and thanks for responding in so much detail.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[TemeCal]

This is all very interesting. Knock on wood, this has been the best tune for me by far. No sputtering, no CELs, ultra smooth and my IAM and knock correction looks great. Hope it all works out for you guys!

Edit: just realized this has more to do with those running flex fuel. I'm running on 91

[Dustin]

I might change to the 75mm pulley as well to see how it does.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

Bye bye port injection, so you better get on board...

Not at all, after a decent in depth chat with Cosworth's head engineer last week he informed me that a lot of the manufacturers that were "DI only" are now reverting back to dual systems as the PI has it's benefits.


I certainly hope that you're not running 100% DI for most of the time as it's common knowledge that running DI only will mean that the valves etc end up with a build up of deposits over time.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

As we have been doing for quite some time now we run our DI system to its full potential first and foremost and then add in PI as needed. This is much different approach and I believe something that only Delicious Tuning offers currently and something we are working with our lawyers on for an official Copyright.

Any thoughts @jamesm? I love the idea of copyrighting a tuning technique within EcuTek.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Any thoughts @jamesm? I love the idea of copyrighting a tuning technique within EcuTek.

Not sure what copyright would mean in this case. A patent for using di? Weird stuff.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

Not at all, after a decent in depth chat with Cosworth's head engineer last week he informed me that a lot of the manufacturers that were "DI only" are now reverting back to dual systems as the PI has it's benefits.


I certainly hope that you're not running 100% DI for most of the time as it's common knowledge that running DI only will mean that the valves etc end up with a build up of deposits over time.

A great comment and first understanding why the intake valves have carbon build is important. Usually a carbon build up on back side of the intake valves is due to a couple things, first and foremost the engine breathers return oil and exhaust fumes through the intake track to the back side of the intake valves. The other scenario is when the exhaust and intake valves overlap a small amount of exhaust gases will find there way to the back side of the intake valves.

With that in mind once manufacturers find a cheap and economical way to clean the air from the engine breathers to the intake track (while being legal to various governing boards) this will take care of most of the problem of carbon build up on the intake valves. Porsche's have incorporated their own air/oil separator into their higher end vehicles to combat this problem. They have a lot fewer problems with carbon build up compared to say Audi which has a lot more carbon build up problems.

Now adding in port direction is definitely a great way of cleaning up the back side of the intake valves in the mean time but pretty sure manufacturers are looking for cheaper ways of producing their vehicles (the reason they used DI only). I assume it will just be a matter of time before it happens. Who know what it will take for it to happen though.

Now with respect to our tunes we do use DI heavily in our tunes but we also use quite a bit of PI, which will of course combat the carbon build up issue. Looking at a log from one of our tunes will show as much.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[jamesm]

It's impossible to copyright a technique of any kind in the US. Specifically, ideas and techniques cannot be copyrighted but the expression of them can. So, you can copyright a written description of a technique, but this does nothing at all to prohibit others from employing it.

Of course everyone knows my personal opinion on things like this... so no need to reiterate. Suffice to say, regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong, it can't be done. You'd need a patent, and prior art would prevent that as well.