FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchbiker

I've got my motor situation sorted now. I've spoken to Phil before, he just never answers the phone and voicemails are rarely returned.

Sorry if you've left multiple messages and emails and we didn't get them. I tried to dig up any emails with FA20, BRZ, or FRS builds and I just couldn't find any we haven't replied to. I know how hard it is to get hold of me personally which is why I'll easily spend 1 hour on the phone with a client which often means it's very hard to get through. We also have a 4 month wait list on currently on our engines so we are just absolutely slammed. Sorry if we missed our opportunity with you!

[Element Tuning]

Wow it's been a really long time since I've updated this thread and where do I even start? First...

Ok has anyone else tried the Remax gear or am the only one holding the torch here? I really wanted to compare my findings with someone else's since our engine is so highly modified internally that I didn't want my results to influence anyone else's data.

For the record we are not running King Bearings in our FA20 builds. Yes, we are in their catalog but haven't tested the product yet. Hoping to do so soon and frankly the only benefit I see is more affordable bearings which is still great news.

So let's go all the way back to the Ultimate Track Car Challenge when I first tested the Remax gear. I'll put some pictures in videos in here to it's not so boring


Here's a professional video "Elements of Grip" from the GRM UTCC and goes into a little about what we faced at this event. Great video!



Here's is exclusively in-car footage at the Ultimate Track Car Challenge holding Porsche Cup cars at bay but some prototype thing blows me away. LOL!

The bottom line is that the Remax oil pump gear was an epic fail for us. Pretty sure the math submitted here didn't quite account for the fact that there are less lobes. As soon as I hit the track I knew we were in trouble but I'm a paid driver and I couldn't just throw in the towel. On the street keep in mind we have enough oil pressure with our motors to run any HP but on the track things change due to heat so we can never fully test the oiling system on the track or on the dyno. Overall oil pressure was a touch lower than just an ET Pro Comp LB with the OEM pump so I wasn't alarmed at first but I was disappointed we did not have more pressure. The main issue surfaced while racing and when I went into 5th and 6th gears where RPM drops. Oil pressure would then drop into the danger zone. We seriously detuned the car, I short shifted the lower gears to keep from taxing the oil in an effort to control heat, and I just kept my eyes glued to the oil pressure gauge. It was probably the third session as I shifted into 6th gear going into the uphill esses at VIR that I noticed the oil pressure drop rapidly and I backed out of it but it was too late.



Now there is zero chance we'll use this gear in any of our client builds because nothing is better about it than what we do and add to our packages. I would say there is a chance, but you guys would need to supply the data, at high RPM (8k-9K) there was an improvement that may warrant this in an NA application. In a boosted application the onset of pressure is much too late in the RPM so you have a large window of high torque and not enough oil pressure. Happy to sell mine dirt cheap to anyone that wants to test the Remax gear in their motor.

Back to our normal Pro Comp Engine procedure and luckily we still were able to wrap up a championship!



Given the situation it was back to the dry sump development but that really hasn't gone well either.



I've tested a number of methods and I have tested two different size oil pumps. Now we kept hitting stumbling blocks and one surprise was a collapsing oil line on the suction side of the pressure stage. Honestly I would have never believed it if I had not seen it with my own eyes!



Even after we fixed the hose by reinforcing it the pressure was still not as good at we get with just our motor build. I'm going to swap the pump out a third time because it's possible with all the cavitation that the pump was damaged some. I'll take it apart to see and I'll rebuild the pump to a slightly smaller pump section as my gut is telling me the huge oil pump was a mismatch.

So finally we went back to just the ET Pro Comp motor when neither the oil pump gear nor the dry sump worked out and I ran in Unlimited class for Global Time Attack in New Orleans for the NOLA Speed and Style event. We are way underpowered (200 whp less than 1st and 3rd place) for this class but we still managed 2nd place. In car video:

I'll be revisiting the dry sump sometime in the next couple weeks in hopes of having a bolt-on solution. I have gotten word that others who have attempted the dry sump also had issues (No it's not going to be public knowledge). Even the dry sump pump manufacturer's are scratching their head with this.

[sam69]

I am still to put the timing cover on my motor and have the Reimax pump gears installed so do you think I'd be better off putting the stock pump gears back in .

[Luckrider]

I have the Reimax in my (currently NA) car. The engine was rebuilt by Moto-East with 10:1 CP Pistons, Skunk 2 Rods, and GSC valve springs. So far, the engine has about 5,000 miles and 2 changes of oil on it. It seems to run great. I can't give any pressure information since I don't have a pressure gauge, but the OEM wet oil cooler has really helped warm the oil up much faster, and keeps it a bit cooler.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by sam69

I am still to put the timing cover on my motor and have the Reimax pump gears installed so do you think I'd be better off putting the stock pump gears back in .

Test it for the community and let us all know how it worked out.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Luckrider

I have the Reimax in my (currently NA) car. The engine was rebuilt by Moto-East with 10:1 CP Pistons, Skunk 2 Rods, and GSC valve springs. So far, the engine has about 5,000 miles and 2 changes of oil on it. It seems to run great. I can't give any pressure information since I don't have a pressure gauge, but the OEM wet oil cooler has really helped warm the oil up much faster, and keeps it a bit cooler.

For NA the oil pressure doesn't matter so much as your power level isn't where higher pressure is required. It is possible the Reimax gear could be beneficial in an NA application from 8-9K rpm where I was seeing a drop until we used the accumulator to pick up the slack to hold around 80psi on our modified engines. I was seeing a pressure drop in that area of 20 psi so it was not minor!!!

[Luckrider]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

For NA the oil pressure doesn't matter so much as your power level isn't where higher pressure is required. It is possible the Reimax gear could be beneficial in an NA application from 8-9K rpm where I was seeing a drop until we used the accumulator to pick up the slack to hold around 80psi on our modified engines. I was seeing a pressure drop in that area of 20 psi so it was not minor!!!

There are plans to go FI in about 1 year when financials recover from the unexpected rebuild. Through the summer I might start bringing the rev limit up to (and maybe above) 8,000 from my current 7,600. The problem is, stock cams. I'll be going low boost if/when I do go turbo though, maybe 300-350whp at most.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Wow it's been a really long time since I've updated this thread and where do I even start?

Well how about that... I'll be the first to admit my math could have been wrong.

There were a few variables I didn't account for; I hoped testing would show they were insignificant, as I did not have the means to measure them. It seems testing has shown the opposite. One is any lost volume from the visible profile mismatch between the rotor and the housing, another is leakback from any tolerance issues, and yet another is the 2-stage bypass valve functioning incorrectly due to increased oil pump discharge..

There are other variables in the engine itself that I haven't examined either.



I intended to test one myself, but I have moved across the country twice in a year now, and I haven't had the time, money, or facility yet.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Luckrider

There are plans to go FI in about 1 year when financials recover from the unexpected rebuild. Through the summer I might start bringing the rev limit up to (and maybe above) 8,000 from my current 7,600. The problem is, stock cams. I'll be going low boost if/when I do go turbo though, maybe 300-350whp at most.

I have stock cams and 9k RPM Just takes the right engine build.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BB79YZwN...=elementtuning

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I have stock cams and 9k RPM Just takes the right engine build.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BB79YZwN...=elementtuning

+ a turbo, you forgot that part

[Luckrider]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I have stock cams and 9k RPM Just takes the right engine build.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BB79YZwN...=elementtuning

That's where the turbo comes in! Hopefully with an electronic boost controller, it can be progressively ramped up to make power that high.

Originally Posted by DocWalt

+ a turbo, you forgot that part

Of course, I would would like to push mine to 9,001 RPM with a turbo just so I can make the over 9,000 joke.

[sam69]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Test it for the community and let us all know how it worked out.

If I was NA I would most likely say no worries but as I'm going to be FI and pushing approx 22 psi I'm thinking it may be to bigger risk as you were saying that there's not enough oil pressure at the lower revs and a PD charger only makes pressures at lower revs worse .

Bottom line is what would you do ??

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

+ a turbo, you forgot that part

We are working on new NA high RPM heads as we speak

[EAGLE5]

Where do you measure oil pressure? Wouldn't an intake tube collapse only if it's not getting enough oil? The oil passages are designed to work with the stock pump and thin oil, not more flow, more pressure, and 50 weight race oil.