Official: Toyota FT-1 Concept / First New Supra Prototype Spotted!

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You can still pioneer technology without being first.

Yea just ask Steve Jobs.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by ermax

Okay so your criteria is shifting speed. Cool.. my criteria is fun factor. I'm fairly sure I am not alone here. I am not drag racing people on my daily commute. I don't give a damn if my car is .3secs slower 0-60. I've willing to give up .3secs to still have fun while driving. I guess I am the minority that likes cars for driving and not for bragging rights.

But you are right about higher priced cars. You get a lot of people that buy them like a **** sizing competition. They drive them like old ladies and don't want to be bothered with shifting while they parade how much money they have.

Here's the thing..... You can shift manually in an auto with either the paddle shifters or the shift lever. And if you are shifting manually, you can have just as much fun. The only thing you don't have is the clutch pedal. For older drivers like me, the manual is built into muscle memory and you just don't think about it. Spend 3 months in a Porsche with PDK and don't drive any other manual and you'll change your mind about manual transmissions -- and it is just as much fun. It's just that people, in general, don't like change. As those of us who grew up with manual transmissions die off, the younger drivers will completely go to autos. Besides, the modern automatic transmissions have more gears than manuals.

From a technology standpoint, I'd like a CVT that is programmed for performance and stays in the highest point of the torque curve all of the time. But again, people don't like change and that won't happen for quite a while. The perfect combination would be a hybrid with an electric motor for low end torque and a CVT when you get going. For those who want more control, I'd put in a lever to control where you are on the torque curve which would give you the same control as a manual, but there would be quite a learning curve.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Rampage

That begs the question as to why they put special differential gearing in the auto trans car. Why not just cut cost and use the same FD gears for both the auto and the manual right from the start of production?

I do believe that the one market that may hang on to a manual transmission longer than any other is the low price sporty car. The MX-5 and the 86/BRZ are prime examples. Upmarket cars like the Supra will move to the more sophisticated and higher performance engine/transmission combinations to emulate what has happened on the racetrack and with the exotics.

AT and MT both have the same FD (4.1) up until the 2017 where once again the manual got the love and got a new FD.

There are plenty of upmarket cars with manuals though. It's only really supercars that have fully dropped the MT. Go back and reread my original comment. Not a single car listed fell into the super car or upmarket segment. They all fell in the cheap drivers car segment.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by MJones_RB

FWIW, the Supra acts like a much heavier, less nimble car around the track, where the 86's low COG makes it a better performer. Now, if they could just give it some guts...

Those gearshifts are from a Dual Clutch also he had to sep on the brake before starting the car.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Here's the thing..... You can shift manually in an auto with either the paddle shifters or the shift lever. And if you are shifting manually, you can have just as much fun. The only thing you don't have is the clutch pedal.

I disagree that it is just as fun. But I've seen people that have driven manuals for 20 years and still not learn all aspects of driving a manual. When they come to a light they just clutch in and roll to a stop. Boring. I have driven dual clutch tranny's. It's still just button pressing to me. There is more to it than just having a third pedal. You have a gated box that you can make mistakes on. You have the timing that you can make mistakes on. You have the launch that you have control over and can make mistakes on. You have rev matching that you control and can make mistakes on. See the thread here? There is a challenge to driving a MT properly and challenges provide a reward.

Originally Posted by rvoll

For older drivers like me, the manual is built into muscle memory and you just don't think about it. Spend 3 months in a Porsche with PDK and don't drive any other manual and you'll change your mind about manual transmissions -- and it is just as much fun. It's just that people, in general, don't like change. As those of us who grew up with manual transmissions die off, the younger drivers will completely go to autos. Besides, the modern automatic transmissions have more gears than manuals.

True it becomes second nature, but that doesn't mean it's not fun. As I said above I've driven a handful of dual-clutch boxes. It has nothing to do with not liking change. It's just not as fun IMO.

Originally Posted by rvoll

From a technology standpoint, I'd like a CVT that is programmed for performance and stays in the highest point of the torque curve all of the time. But again, people don't like change and that won't happen for quite a while. The perfect combination would be a hybrid with an electric motor for low end torque and a CVT when you get going. For those who want more control, I'd put in a lever to control where you are on the torque curve which would give you the same control as a manual, but there would be quite a learning curve.

Yeah cool technology but CVT would be the ultimate bore. Again I love technology. If I want to have fun with technology I will design a controller and write software to control my sprinkler system. If I want to have fun with a car then I want to be the one doing everything. No TC, ABS... nothing.

But anyways, we've beaten this horse enough.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by BRZer86

According to Tada, the A90 has a lower COG than the BRZ/FRS/GT86. And based on that video, the A90 looks flat coming out of the those turns. I’m no engineer but I guess if you lower the COG of a vehicle it may allow some tolerance to add weight and not be punished for doing so.

Funny I was thinking the opposite. To me it looked like it was sprung much more soft or much more heavy in the way it moved. For example at this timecode where it comes over that crest. The front inside it way high and the rear outside is dipped very low. Looks more boat like than an 86.:

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Those gearshifts are from a Dual Clutch also he had to sep on the brake before starting the car.

Lol. No they're not. That's how quick the ZF boxes shift. BMW has totally abandoned the dual clutch going forward, now that the autos are just as fast, and they hold way more torque.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by ermax

I disagree that it is just as fun. But I've seen people that have driven manuals for 20 years and still not learn all aspects of driving a manual. When they come to a light they just clutch in and roll to a stop. Boring. I have driven dual clutch tranny's. It's still just button pressing to me. There is more to it than just having a third pedal. You have a gated box that you can make mistakes on. You have the timing that you can make mistakes on. You have the launch that you have control over and can make mistakes on. You have rev matching that you control and can make mistakes on. See the thread here? There is a challenge to driving a MT properly and challenges provide a reward.

True it becomes second nature, but that doesn't mean it's not fun. As I said above I've driven a handful of dual-clutch boxes. It has nothing to do with not liking change. It's just not as fun IMO.

Sometimes, driving a stick is a pain -- like in traffic. Sometimes it's a lot of fun on twisties. Sometimes, you're taking a trip and an auto just let's you pay attention to the road. Occasionally, someone else needs to drive the car and they don't know how to drive a stick. At the track I want the one with the best performance to get lower lap times. Riding a three speed beach bike with reverse pedal brakes is more challenging, but I prefer a 21 speed with disc brakes. That said, I get your point. Drivers 25 years from now might not even know what a manual transmission was..... Hell, they might not even know what an internal combustion engine was....

[HKz]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Sometimes, driving a stick is a pain -- like in traffic. Sometimes it's a lot of fun on twisties. Sometimes, you're taking a trip and an auto just let's you pay attention to the road. Occasionally, someone else needs to drive the car and they don't know how to drive a stick. At the track I want the one with the best performance to get lower lap times. Riding a three speed beach bike with reverse pedal brakes is more challenging, but I prefer a 21 speed with disc brakes. That said, I get your point. Drivers 25 years from now might not even know what a manual transmission was..... Hell, they might not even know what an internal combustion engine was....

just sounds like you became a grandpa

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by HKz

just sounds like you became a grandpa

About 20 years ago....

[krayzie]

Funny nobody mentioned how sucky the feeling is when DSG sometimes guessed wrong on the next gear and it will feel like eternity when you downshift, even tho it's only a matter of a split second. I daily drove the first gen DSG for almost 7 years (i.e. Mk4 VW Golf R32 / Mk1 Audi TT / Mk5 VW Golf GTI).

A torque converter automatic shouldn't have this issue. The Toyota one doesn't upshift at redline which allows you to hold the gear if desired.

Also the modern clutch pedal has a helper spring that pulls the pedal down as you step on it, making it feel lighter and less effort to work with. So I don't understand the traffic argument.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by ermax

But I've seen people that have driven manuals for 20 years and still not learn all aspects of driving a manual.

I actually know such people.

[EAGLE5]

How can you target a Cayman and make the car front-engined? ME and RE are just faster. No contest.
Looks good, even with camo.
4 or 6 cylinder? Options are always good.
Nerdburgring? Yawn.
Tadasan is a class act and a smart guy. He not only signed my FR-S, he noticed that I had swapped Subaru wheels onto it. He makes a hell of a car, and I'm sure the Supra's gonna be fun.
If you wanna have more fun, get a manual. if you wanna go faster, get an automatic.
Tacos.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Here's the thing..... You can shift manually in an auto with either the paddle shifters or the shift lever.

Semantics. I suspect for a lot of car forum people "manual" means 3 pedals. You are not "shifting manually", you are using a switch.

Originally Posted by rvoll

And if you are shifting manually, you can have just as much fun.

Fun is subjective. I enjoy driving my mum's 2 pedal Yaris. I play around with the gear selector; it is still an auto.

Originally Posted by rvoll

Spend 3 months in a Porsche with PDK and don't drive any other manual and you'll change your mind about manual transmissions

This is conjecture.

Originally Posted by rvoll

-- and it is just as much fun. It's just that people, in general, don't like change.

See above. It might be just as as much for you. I do not dispute driving an auto can be fun. But it is not the same as driving a manual. Ergo, the fun is different. Not necessarily better or worse but different.


Every time I hear an auto Audi or a Golf take off from the lights with a bit of speed I am reminded why I don't want an auto. I also find it a little funny that with some superduper cars (a recent Lambo of some sort comes to mind) when one selects race mode the gear changes become more abrupt so the driver can feel something tangible with the gear change.