RIP Porsche Cayman (going electric in 2025)

[Yoshoobaroo]

You guys are forgetting the torque curve of an electric motor.

Yes, they make a TON of torque. At low rpm. The torque drops nearly linearly with rpm, so an electric car will never ‘pull to redline’ like a good ICE motor. Most BEVs limit the Torque under ~40mph to spare the gearbox and tires, so in that regime it stays constant, but after that they lose output rather quickly.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

You guys are forgetting the torque curve of an electric motor.

Yes, they make a TON of torque. At low rpm. The torque drops nearly linearly with rpm, so an electric car will never ‘pull to redline’ like a good ICE motor. Most BEVs limit the Torque under ~40mph to spare the gearbox and tires, so in that regime it stays constant, but after that they lose output rather quickly.

Because all electric motors perform exactly the same?

Because 500 lb/ft from a paltry 0 to 5000rpm followed by a slow ramp down to 375 lb/ft at 11k rpm is soooo much worse than the blessed 350-385 lb/ft that the Mustang Voodoo makes from an amazing 3700 rpm to 6400rpm and 320 lb/ft at 8200 RPM? In all fairness, it seems like the AWD Model 3 takes a steaming dump all over that blessed super-high-revving and much-lauded Voodoo engine. The Voodoo gets peak torque around 4800 rpm, where it's a mere 115 lb/ft less than the Model 3. When the Voodoo runs out of life at 8200rpm, the Model 3 still makes 430 lb/ft.

Granted, the GT350 is 3818 lbs and the M3P is 4087lbs, albeit with 4 doors.

Or should I choose another ICE because the Voodoo is just too crap an engine?

Admit it: if you hate EVs then it's a culture war thing, a fetish, or just plain ignorance.

The Cayman EV will run circles around the current generation.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

Because all electric motors perform exactly the same?

Because 500 lb/ft from a paltry 0 to 5000rpm followed by a slow ramp down to 375 lb/ft at 11k rpm is soooo much worse than the blessed 350-385 lb/ft that the Mustang Voodoo makes from an amazing 3700 rpm to 6400rpm and 320 lb/ft at 8200 RPM? In all fairness, it seems like the AWD Model 3 takes a steaming dump all over that blessed super-high-revving and much-lauded Voodoo engine. The Voodoo gets peak torque around 4800 rpm, where it's a mere 115 lb/ft less than the Model 3. When the Voodoo runs out of life at 8200rpm, the Model 3 still makes 430 lb/ft.

Granted, the GT350 is 3818 lbs and the M3P is 4087lbs, albeit with 4 doors.

Or should I choose another ICE because the Voodoo is just too crap an engine?

Admit it: if you hate EVs then it's a culture war thing, a fetish, or just plain ignorance.

The Cayman EV will run circles around the current generation.

Lol. I never said I hate EVs. When we’re talking about sports cars (not the same as performance cars), feel matters most of all. I don’t care how fast it is, it will not feel how I want a sports car to feel. That’s fine. That doesn’t mean I won’t eventually get an EV. I’ll take a plug in hybrid first until we get real world changing times everywhere of 200 miles in ~20mins.

Pretending EVs are better just because they’re faster is dumb, cause they’re not. Especially when we’re talking about a segment of cars that is already very hard to quantify objectively.

[Irace86.2.0]

The Teslas tend to have a fairly flat torque curve, whether innately or by design, up to 65, so unless someone is tracking the car, most buyers of sporty cars will be fine.

https://www.mountainpassperformance....-dyno-testing/

The bigger issue for most sporty car buyers is loss of power depending on battery charge.

[Irace86.2.0]

Maybe the other thing to mention is that most people really don’t have that many positive things to say about the sound of a 4 cylinder turbo Cayman/Boxster. Maybe no sound is better than a bad sound. Will they call it a Boxster anymore?

I thought we would see a hybrid before a full BEV from Porsche, but the world is changing fast, so I guess it makes sense.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe the other thing to mention is that most people really don’t have that many positive things to say about the sound of a 4 cylinder turbo Cayman/Boxster. Maybe no sound is better than a bad sound. Will they call it a Boxster anymore?

I thought we would see a hybrid before a full BEV from Porsche, but the world is changing fast, so I guess it makes sense.

I love the way the 4banger Boxster/Cayman sounds. Porsche purists just love to be salty.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

I love the way the 4banger Boxster/Cayman sounds. Porsche purists just love to be salty.

Some may enjoy the sound, or lack of the sound, of the EV motors. ICE purists just love to be salty.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Lol. I never said I hate EVs. When we’re talking about sports cars (not the same as performance cars), feel matters most of all. I don’t care how fast it is, it will not feel how I want a sports car to feel. That’s fine. That doesn’t mean I won’t eventually get an EV. I’ll take a plug in hybrid first until we get real world changing times everywhere of 200 miles in ~20mins.

Pretending EVs are better just because they’re faster is dumb, cause they’re not. Especially when we’re talking about a segment of cars that is already very hard to quantify objectively.

I get that cars can be about feeling. However, I think engine sound is way overstated. Having owned a couple V8s, an I6, a few i4s, and a couple flat fours, the sound is a tiny part of the experience. Then, at the track, with the windows down and a helmet on, I can barely hear the engine anyway. Is it thus not a thrilling experience?

Much of the driving experience has already been quantified for the hobbyist: 0-60, g forces, suspension frequency, steering effort, and many other factors. We may, as non-automotive engineers, not have the right vocabulary to quantify everything about a certain system's feel, but nothing there is magic. It's all quantifiable.

The marketing types just want you to believe otherwise. It's like with stereo systems. They sell you on bullshit and say it's magic. Hence the popularity of stupidly priced cables, among other scams. They'll even sell you $1000/foot power cables that plug right into your $.05 per foot wall wiring. Want a $12,000 turntable that still sounds worse than a 128kbps MP3 through $9 DAC for your phone from Apple? You got it, mister!

So you like your acceleration to start slow and rise then get slow again and rise? That's fine, but it's a bit like saying how you love your riding experiences to involve the smell of horse feces or that impotence is a positive and expected part of the bicycle riding experience. To each his own.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The Teslas tend to have a fairly flat torque curve, whether innately or by design, up to 65, so unless someone is tracking the car, most buyers of sporty cars will be fine.

https://www.mountainpassperformance....-dyno-testing/

The bigger issue for most sporty car buyers is loss of power depending on battery charge.

Maybe the other thing to mention is that most people really don’t have that many positive things to say about the sound of a 4 cylinder turbo Cayman/Boxster. Maybe no sound is better than a bad sound. Will they call it a Boxster anymore?

I thought we would see a hybrid before a full BEV from Porsche, but the world is changing fast, so I guess it makes sense.

Interestingly, even at 45% battery, the Tesla still has massive amounts of torque. It just has less than at full. Porsche did make their system have almost identical performance at most states of charge, but they just made a motor limited system instead of a battery limited system. It's not some accomplishment of engineering.

Porsche does, as I'm sure you know, have several hybrids. It just doesn't make much sense in a small, light car. I think the only reason they even made their plug-in hybrids (short of that supercar) is to satisfy the ever-growing number of no-emissions zones in European city centers.

That all said, I'm far from in love with my Model Y. It has many issues. It his, still, the best option for me on the market. That will likely change over the next 2-3 years. I can't wait for the Cayman BEV.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

So you like your acceleration to start slow and rise then get slow again and rise? That's fine, but it's a bit like saying how you love your riding experiences to involve the smell of horse feces or that impotence is a positive and expected part of the bicycle riding experience. To each his own.

That’s fair.

To be clear, I’m not advocating we hamstring EV’s so they feel more like ICE’s. I don’t think that’s the answer. EVs can deliver an exciting drive in their own right. The argument I’d like to make is that the classic sports car feeling is likely to go away after this current (small) crop of sports cars. I think even the Miata will become noticeably different when it goes EV.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Some may enjoy the sound, or lack of the sound, of the EV motors. ICE purists just love to be salty.

I'm curious if some performance cars will start making the electric motors less muted. Not sure if it's the type of motor or how it's integrated, but some electric motors are loud as hell. I'd love to hear what the sound is like in a lightweight 'sports' EV. Formula E cars sound cool:

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

Interestingly, even at 45% battery, the Tesla still has massive amounts of torque. It just has less than at full. Porsche did make their system have almost identical performance at most states of charge, but they just made a motor limited system instead of a battery limited system. It's not some accomplishment of engineering.

Porsche does, as I'm sure you know, have several hybrids. It just doesn't make much sense in a small, light car. I think the only reason they even made their plug-in hybrids (short of that supercar) is to satisfy the ever-growing number of no-emissions zones in European city centers.

That all said, I'm far from in love with my Model Y. It has many issues. It his, still, the best option for me on the market. That will likely change over the next 2-3 years. I can't wait for the Cayman BEV.

This is what I imagined would have come first before going all in on BEVs for a brand like Porsche.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

This is what I imagined would have come first before going all in on BEVs for a brand like Porsche.

I'd rather get one of the full EV conversions. This adds much complication and cost without truly transforming performance. Hybrids are very 2010. That was the year Prius sales peaked.

That said, I would not kick one out of bed. I'd just hope that some Russian mobsters were paying for her.

I'll just leave this here:

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

It says 718 GT4. I would say it is the other way around, meaning it is the heavier 718 model (6-cyl vs. 4-cyl).

The turbo and intercooler add back most of the difference. I just checked, apparently the non-GT4 is a little lighter, but not much:
https://www.718forum.com/threads/how...3/#post-199781

(PDK is +60lbs ish, but the GT4 has the wing, heavier wheels/tires since they're thicker, bigger brake rotors, etc.)

Apparently the Boxster Spyder is still the lightest one, but it's still nearly 3100lbs.

[EAGLE5]

Interesting thing about the Vonnen kit is that you're wasting your money on a base Carrera. Add it to a turbo and you may as well have just turned up the turbos or gone E85 or a host of other mods that would get you way more power. I suppose you can then add it just to fill in the torque falloffs as the turbo builds boost, but why not just use some software to do antilag then. Add it to a GT3 and things get interesting, but then you probably should have just gotten a turbo anyway since now you've dumped 180 lbs or so into your GT3 that's supposed to be the raw, light version. And all for about 80k installed.