Kraftwerks Rotrex Supercharger Discussion

[uspspro]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Lets stick to the FA20 setup, since flow changes alot engine to engine, not to mention HP figures are practically worthless when comparing two different platforms, what's the compression ratio on the 2zz? Because we know from experience at this point your hard pressed to even see 300 HP on a SC without E85 on the FA20.

2zz is 11.5:1 c/r

[ft_sjo]

How much boost you see with a supercharger greatly depends on the tune.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Adeets

As it stands I'm not seeing the hype, looks like a vortech with a smaller impeller but higher revs. And there numbers on 91 (235 according to that dyno refrence on the other thread) seems pretty much the same output. Am I missing something?

Via Kraftwerk's article: "Not All Boost Is Created Equal"

Gear Driven Centrifugal Superchargers utilize a centrifugal compressor section, but because of their limited rpm capabilities (-55,000rpm max) they must oversized impellers to achieve the desired amount of mass air flow. As a result, these superchargers are far from optimal and generally suffer from weak low-end torque. Furthermore, like positive displacement superchargers, gear driven centrifugal chargers are highly noisy.

Rotrex Centrifugal Supercharger presents a unique solution that combines the best aspects of supercharging and with those of turbocharging. Unlike any other supercharging solution, the patented Rotrex traction drive allows it to operate at sufficiently high rpm levels (up to 240,000 rpm) to take full advantage of modern centrifugal compressor and impeller design. The result is a supercharger that offers better low-end boost than other centrifugal superchargers, better top-end boost that positive displacement superchargers, and better more predictable throttle response than turbochargers. Also unlike turbos and positive displacement superchargers, the Rotrex supercharger does not suffer from heat related issues. Because the Rotrex runs cooler (lower thermal stress), higher compression ratios and advanced timing can be run thus further optimizing response and power.

[industrial]

Wow it's nice to have options! Little over one year and we have so many FI options. This looks like it could be the best supercharging option so far. Anyone know the difference between the JR kit and this one?

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by industrial

Wow it's nice to have options! Little over one year and we have so many FI options. This looks like it could be the best supercharging option so far. Anyone know the difference between the JR kit and this one?

Well I've been following both closely, and I'll try to note as many differences as I can. They both use the same C30-94 Rotrex SC unit, but the JR kit does not have a secondary belt like the KW kit does to drive the SC. The SC unit on the KW kit is also offset right which allows a more straight shot for the charge pipe to the throttle body, and allows the cold air intake to have a shorter path to the SC impeller. The KW kit's oil reservoir is mounted closer to the SC and the JR one is mounted by the brake booster. The JR kit does not look like it will crowd out Perrin/Mishi/FBM/Mocal oil cooler sandwich plates and lines and require a special one like the KW kit requires.


KW




JR

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Via Kraftwerk's article: "Not All Boost Is Created Equal"

There advertising at this point is not backed up by fact, the dyno that's floating around of theirs does not show improved low end torque compared to vortech.

I think this unit needs someone like gem, to be the tester and release info.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Adeets

There advertising at this point is not backed up by fact, the dyno that's floating around of theirs does not show improved low end torque compared to vortech.

I think this unit needs someone like gem, to be the tester and release info.

Other platforms are seeing the advertised results first-hand:
http://s2000.com/forums/forced-induc...html#post87970
and
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...8#post10090408
and
http://www.koenigsegg.com/models/ccx/


I agree that our platform needs a dedicated third party tester to actively share info and data with the community here... but it seems like both JR and KW are doing all their testing behind closed doors without leaking any quantifiable data besides KW releasing what's presumed to be a tuned (by who??) E85 dyno with headers and exhaust.

[Skyllz]

More options is always good for the customer. I cant wait to have more details on the pulley/belt system them are using.

The KW kit seems very nicely designed from the pictures we have here.

[Adeets]

It honestly reminds me of Sidel vs krones, krones was first to create a type of blowmolders that take the performs thru the oven with the spindle on top of the perform, so if it falls it drops to the ground, Sidel created theirs after krones patented their blowmolder so they made the spindle pick up the perform then rotated it 180 degrees so it went thru the oven upside down, they sited the decision on that the performs are heated faster since heat rises, but since there upside down if one drops off the spindle it breaks the oven lamps. Since they flipped the perform they didn't have to pay the patent tax. They both work the same down to the foot when your talking heating, it's just the Sidel has a slight disadvantage because it was second to the game.

I see the same here, rotrex can't internally lube since it revs so high, but they both do the same thing almost to the T.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by gmsii

the rotrex has its own self contained oiling and cooling system...ideal operating temp is approximately 180, but can go up to 210 i believe....if oil temps get too high during track use, the rotrex oil cooler can simply be upgraded to a larger unit to bring those temps down.

as for track use durability, it should be noted that sport car motion record holding time FF time attack cars use rotrex without sc overheating problems...also hondata record holding landpspeed car does not have overheating problems...you can also see plenty off other cars and race cars that use rotrex chargers on the kraftwerks website or facebook page

Thank you for the info. I'm concerned as with @Dezoris that our platform brings unique issues to the table. I'd like to see more track testing results & temperature readings while being driven hard at the track. Otherwise it seems like you are just assuming everything will work well with the FR-S when in reality most F/I track cars I've heard that start pushing it (with the FR-S platform), encounter a lot of heating issues.

TL;DR we've heard vendors say "oh yea, this thing won't have any heat issues at the track in hot weather"; then 3rd party results show otherwise. Some of us would just like to see more information.

I'm definitely excited for the potential though, I'd really like a solution to be a lot more track oriented out of the box.

[SmsAlSuwaidi]

Lol at all the vortech fanboys hopping on all other s/c threads and going all detective and shit

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Other platforms are seeing the advertised results first-hand:
http://s2000.com/forums/forced-induc...html#post87970
and
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...8#post10090408
and
http://www.koenigsegg.com/models/ccx/


I agree that our platform needs a dedicated third party tester to actively share info and data with the community here... but it seems like both JR and KW are doing all their testing behind closed doors without leaking any quantifiable data besides what's presumed to be a tuned (by who??) E85 dyno with headers and exhaust.

That's 2 links with dead end information like this one, no actual comparisons, then a link to rotrexs home of advertisement heaven? What is that point of those links, what were they suspose to show?

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Adeets

I see the same here, rotrex can't internally lube since it revs so high, but they both do the same thing almost to the T.

Don't forget that the Rotrex does so more efficiently than the Vortech. The Rotrex doesn't overheat when tracked hard like the Vortech does requiring Gem to go oil fed with his after blowing out the impeller seals IIRC. We don't have track data for our platform for either the JR or KW Rotrex kits and so all we have to go on is what other platform's have experienced.

Originally Posted by Adeets

That's 2 links with dead end information like this one, no actual comparisons, then a link to rotrexs home of advertisement heaven? What is that point of those links, what were they suspose to show?

Look, I'm just trying to stay on topic here and give you some examples of Rotrex SC's being used on other platforms and how the users find their performace compared to normal centris like Vortech. I don't have all the answers, I am not a tester, I just did my own research and these are the conclusions I've made so far with what I've read so far.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by SmsAlSuwaidi

Lol at all the vortech fanboys hopping on all other s/c threads and going all detective and shit

I have never been a fan boy for Vortech. I basically publicly trashed them after my install. But they have proven themselves in terms of support and fixing issues, and reliability its the most popular SC because of it.

The problem has and always been transparency. On these forums, it's so tiring seeing 95% marketing and a sprinkle of data. When you question anything you are either a troll or made to be an idiot.

My feeling is if you peddling a product online or forums have the data to back up your claims. If you did your homework and proper testing then there should be very little to hide.