Just another 450whp Turbo FT86 -- and NOW 530hp

[Jaden]

With an unrestricted exhaust and E85 it maxes out at what N/A? 235whp? and that's being VERY generous...



THAT'S the MOST power it can make with the air it can flow... In order to more than double the max it can flow, you have to more than double the amount of air... The only way you can do that is to double the pressure of atmospheric... The turbo being able to flow that at lower boost levels only means that the turbo doesn't become a restriction at flowing that air, you still have to GET IT IN THE CAR...


That's why turbo sizing is REALLY important because it does you no good to put a giant turbo on the car because it can only flow so much of the air the turbo can put out.

So you're telling me that you can MORE than double that with a less than 50% increase in AIR? because you need to be at almost 15 psi to double atmospheric.


If you don't understand that the ultimate flow is still limited, then it's pointless talking to you, and if you think you can flow enough air at 7 psi of boost to more than double the air that it's capable of flowing at atmospheric, then you are living in fantasy land.


Jaden


So the most power you should see at 7 psi of boost is about 50% more than N/A, so right about 300hp worth on 93 and 335-350hp worth on E85, which, GUESS WHAT, is exactly what you see in real life... and those numbers are the absolute max with having timing on the dangerous, insert go BOOM, side. More realistic numbers for 7 psi would be 250-260 on 93 and 300 on E85.


The size of the turbo and what it's capable of flowing ISN'T going to change how much the engine can flow and take... because the volume of air the engine can flow is relatively static, hence why you boost it...lol


That's not to say that some turbos won't flow more air on this platform and hence make more power at the same boost levels, but it is STILL ultimately LIMITED by how much volume of air the engine can flow..


Here's an illustration of that... The max you can expect for the engine to flow out of 15 psi of boost is about 45 lbs a minute or about 450hp on the safe side, not that 450 hp is safe with stock internals...lol.


Say you have a turbo that flows 36 lbs a minute at 15 psi of boost. It's only going to be able to make about 360 hp at 15 psi of boost(the turbo's flow rate and efficiency becomes a restriction).. If you put a larger turbo that can flow 43 lbs/min at 15 psi, you will be able to get about 425-30 hp.


If you put a turbo that can flow 65 lbs/min at 15 psi, how much power do you think you can make? Not 650hp... you'll only be able to make about 450hp because the VE of the engine prevents you from making more than that at 15 psi, the engine isn't capable of flowing 65lbs/min at 15 psi..


Which is the same thing for a turbo capable of putting out 50 lbs/min at 7 psi, it doesn't matter that it can flow that much air, the VE of the engine prevent the engine from ingesting that much air at 7 psi, the most air this engine can ingest at 7 psi is about 30 lbs min..IF you're wanting to run at 7 psi, you should get a turbo that flows about 30-35 lbs/min at 7 psi, any more than that is overkill and will take too long to spool. The only exception to this is if you plan to run more boost down the road and want better efficiency at those higher boost levels.

[Jaden]

That's why people port and Polish their heads because it increase that static flow rate.

Adjusting vvt and changing cam profiles also change it.

Jaden

[BRZoomTX]

Originally Posted by Jaden

So the most power you should see at 7 psi of boost is about 50% more than N/A, so right about 300hp worth on 93 and 335-350hp worth on E85, which, GUESS WHAT, is exactly what you see in real life... and those numbers are the absolute max with having timing on the dangerous, insert go BOOM, side. More realistic numbers for 7 psi would be 250-260 on 93 and 300 on E85.

The max you can expect for the engine to flow out of 15 psi of boost is about 32 lbs a minute or about 450hp on the safe side, not that 450 hp is safe with stock internals...lol.

Once again basing power and airflow amount on boost level.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by BRZoomTX

Once again basing power and airflow amount on boost level.

No I wasn't.

Power is based on airflow. The amount of airflow a given volume can take is based on boost when going beyond its na limits.
You really need to stop. You're making yourself look more and more retarded with every post.

I'm sorry that you can't understand what I posted.

If you think that a fa20 can make 500hp on 7 psi of boost though you simply don't understand how shit works


Jaden

[BRZoomTX]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Power is based on airflow. The amount of airflow a given volume can take is based on boost when going beyond its na limits.
You really need to stop. You're making yourself look more and more retarded with every post.

Yes, but what you seem to be missing is 7psi on say a 55mm isn't the same airflow as 7psi on a 76mm. You cannot use a simple boost pressure level to guesstimate HP like you're constantly doing in every single one of your posts.

500hp at 7psi on a big turbo? I don't know, but by your logic you're claiming X PSI yields the same end power regardless of turbo, and that is clearly not correct. You constantly use a base PSI level to guesstimate power. You can't do that, its not accurate. That is what you seem to be missing every time you decide to hit that "reply" button.

Regardless of what you want to claim, its pretty common knowledge less boost on bigger turbos flow more air / make more power than small turbos at the same boost level. That is all I'm saying, and I've got no idea why you're trying to dispute that.

[Jaden]

An intake, heads, valves, exhaust, the cylinder, stroke, all come together and provide a certain amount of air flow. Which then allows you to add a commensurate amount of fuel that develops power.

You can add timing improve airflow etc and that allows you to add power but it's finite.

Now f/I. What IS forced induction? It's compressing air to fit more oxygen in the same volume allowing you to add more fuel and produce more power.

This does NOT change the amount of air that all of those other things allow. It merely compresses the air so more fits in the same volume.

The amount of air that a turbo can flow is dependent mostly on the size of the inducer compared to the exducer.

The boost is the amount of compression that occurs when moving that air.

How much air the turbo can flow does NOT change how much air the components of the engine can flow. Boost allows you to add more air into a given volume. So if you're at 15 psi of boost, which is approximately double that of ambient, you can flow double the amount of air that those components can flow na.

7psi of boost allows you to flow approx. 50% more air.

The amount of air the turbo can flow at a given boost level DOES NOT CHANGE how much air the engine can flow. Only adjustments to those components that affects the engines ability to flow air can do that.

The turbo is NOT one of those components.

You can port the head, bore the cylinders, change valve timing, reduce exhaust restriction, etc, but using a bigger turbo WILL NOT change how much air the ENGINE can flow. In order to improve the volumetric efficiency and produce more power by adding more air you MUST RAISE THE BOOSTwhen you get beyond the limits of the engines ability to flow air.

I don't know how else to explain it. You can change the turbo all day long but the car will make the same amount of power at the same boost level unless the turbo is a restriction and can't flow as much as the engine can ingest.

Please learn how shit works before you mouth off.

Jaden

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by BRZoomTX

Yes, but what you seem to be missing is 7psi on say a 55mm isn't the same airflow as 7psi on a 76mm. You cannot use a simple boost pressure level to guesstimate HP like you're constantly doing in every single one of your posts.

500hp at 7psi on a big turbo? I don't know, but by your logic you're claiming X PSI yields the same end power regardless of turbo, and that is clearly not correct. You constantly use a base PSI level to guesstimate power. You can't do that, its not accurate. That is what you seem to be missing every time you decide to hit that "reply" button.

Regardless of what you want to claim, its pretty common knowledge less boost on bigger turbos flow more air / make more power than small turbos at the same boost level. That is all I'm saying, and I've got no idea why you're trying to dispute that.

Did you even read what I posted?

I didn't miss that at all.

I specifically stated the instances where that will make a difference. It only makes a difference within the air flow rates that the engine is capable of ingesting.

Iow, if the turbo isn't a restriction putting a bigger turbo will NOT give you more power, with the exception of it being more efficient at creating the boost and having a cooler air charge

Jaden

[BRZoomTX]

How ironic. Let me just say, your post history is very interesting. Lots of jargon coming from someone who doesn't even know how turbo oil feeds function.

But you know, guess you've learned a lot in just two years to try and discredit what the local forum pros are saying. And no, not referring to myself in that context. I wish I was as good at this platform as those here who you are making an effort to discredit.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by BRZoomTX

How ironic. Let me just say, your post history is very interesting. Lots of jargon coming from someone who doesn't even know how turbo oil feeds function.

But you know, guess you've learned a lot in just two years to try and discredit what the local forum pros are saying. And no, not referring to myself in that context. I wish I was as good at this platform as those here who you are making an effort to discredit.

I promise you that no one who knows what they're talking about will say that anything I've stated here is wrong. Lol

Jaden

[EAGLE5]

Pounds of air per second inside the cylinder, mixed with fossil fuels and processed corn, make power, not PSI. Bigger turbos typically move more pounds of air per second for a given pressure. They also create less back pressure than smaller turbos moving the same lbs/s, which makes getting more lbs/s into the cylinder easier.

The engine is not the bottleneck. The turbo is the bottleneck.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Pounds of air per second inside the cylinder, mixed with fossil fuels and processed corn, make power, not PSI. Bigger turbos typically move more pounds of air per second for a given pressure. They also create less back pressure than smaller turbos moving the same lbs/s, which makes getting more lbs/s into the cylinder easier.

The engine is not the bottleneck. The turbo is the bottleneck.

If that were the case, you wouldn't NEED to boost... jesus christ you people need to learn some shit...

Why do you need to boost at ALL if the engine isn't the bottle neck...

Some of you just don't seem to understand that the engine HAS to be ABLE to flow the lbs a minute that the turbo can produce at a given boost ratio.

The flow an engine can ACCEPT is FINITE... that's WHY you boost.

I explained it IN DEPTH but you guys are either too hung up on turbo flow or are incapable of understanding.

A turbo can flow 85 lbs a minute, but the engine can only accept SO MUCH...

I don't care HOW much air the turbo can flow, you can only get so much air into the fucking cylinder at a given boost level. It's like talking to a five year old.

It's called volumetric efficiency.

a cylinder is only so big around and only opens up a certain amount... Those two things combined gives you the volume of air/fuel it can fit per intake cycle.

By boosting it, you increase that amount. At 7 psi of boost (pounds per square inch above atmospheric (14.7 psi at sea level)), you are increasing the volume about 48%. It doesn't matter HOW MANY lbs/min a turbo can flow, you WILL NOT be able to fit more than 148% of the air that the cylinder and stroke can fit N/A at 7 psi of boost.

edit(that's not entirely true, you can lean out the fuel/air mixture and fit more air, but you risk detonation the more you do this, and the higher the ultimate compression ratio is (i.e. the more boost you use) the more rich you want it to be to avoid detonation).

Now, if the turbo only flows 125% of the air that the engine fits N/A, then getting a bigger turbo will allow you to fit, (wait for it), UP TO 148% of the air it can fit N/A, but it doesn't matter HOW BIG A TURBO you use, you will NEVER be able to fit more than 148% of the air it fits N/A at 7 psi of boost.

The only way to get more than 148% of the air it fits N/A to FIT in the cylinder is to increase the boost beyond 7 psi, or to change the things that affect the static flow.

At 15psi, you can fit about 204-5% of the air it can fit N/A.

If you have a turbo that at 15 psi can only flow 165% of the air it can fit N/A, then using a bigger turbo that can flow more air will allow you to fit up to 204-5% of the air it can fit N/A, but you will NEVER get more than that to fit without changing those things that affect static volume flow rate.

Those things are VVT, cam profiles, exhaust restrictions, cylinder size, stroke length...port/valve size...

That's the fucking reality, and NOTHING you say about "giant turbo bitches...flow rate" is going to change that.

Jaden

p.s. It does get more complicated changing those static flow rate variables with boost, certain valve overlapping etc are more beneficial for boosted applications versus N/A, but that's the gist of it.

[GhostOp86]

[Jaden]

In order for this engine or ANY 2.0l engine for that matter, to make 500hp at 7 psi of boost, it would need to have the flow N/A to make 320hp, because no matter WHAT you do, you will only be able to increase the amount of air that fits in the given volume ~48 % at 7 psi of boost.

You'll find that an otherwise stock ls3 will make about 525-530 whp at 7psi because it makes about 360whp n/a.

That is the reality, you want more, you increase the static flow or you increase the boost, those are your ONLY options. Bigger turbo will NOT add more than 48% additional airflow at 7 psi of boost. That's pretty much the DEFINITION of boost...

Jaden

[johan]

I see a 72mm in Vit's FR-S's future...

Too bad he's currently on a cruise with his wife for a week - he can't weigh in here.

I'm not even going to bother getting into it at this point other than to simply say - Jaden, sorry buddy, you're wrong.