BRZ/FR-S Strut Tower Brace - Any Interest?

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Awesome insight! I'll save some of these details for the morning, since it's getting late and I'm not at a workstation, but I should mention that we haven't shared any FEA yet. The model shown in the second figure is actual, recorded data from a stationary vehicle. FEA and simulations are great, and you'll definitely see a decent amount of it, but we really value good, hard data collection when possible. Hopefully we can stop just short of making me dust off my WinGeo discs.

We will definitely be refining our test methods as the project progresses and we can justify the investment. We just wanted something, even if it's rough, to justify starting the project. Between the two of us, we have a good deal of experience with FSAE, SAE Baja, racing and vehicle dynamics testing/evaluation, so if we can justify the time/resources, you can bet we'll get way too far into the data/analysis. Stick around, you're obviously a sharp dude!

Hopefully once this 8-12in of snow they're predicting for tomorrow passes, we can get back to warm, dry roads and the, uh, testing.

Matt
Engineering

BTW, it's morning. DETAILS!!!

If this was a physical test, did you guys use the FARO arm + a floor jack?

You guys do a phenomenal job of product development. Analysis, materials, machining, etc. were all 100% proper for the master cylinder brace. Alot of us want to see you guys take that methodology and continue it for more complex parts. Thanks for supporting the 86 community, and hopefully we can make you guys filthy rich. :happy0180:

[johnb831]

Interested. Can't wait till the final production comes out. You guys make awesome products!

[GrimmSpeed]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

BTW, it's morning. DETAILS!!!

If this was a physical test, did you guys use the FARO arm + a floor jack?

You guys do a phenomenal job of product development. Analysis, materials, machining, etc. were all 100% proper for the master cylinder brace. Alot of us want to see you guys take that methodology and continue it for more complex parts. Thanks for supporting the 86 community, and hopefully we can make you guys filthy rich. :happy0180:

Haha, it is morning. I've gotta get my coffee and brush the snow off the BRZ (wtf?) before we start having too much fun.

You nailed it. We used the FARO arm to plot points on the strut towers with the car in a number of different states (corner lifted, different bars, etc). Like Chase mentioned, it's not a perfect simulation of how the chassis behaves on the road/track, but we were able to get enough solid, repeatable data that we can be confident that we aren't traveling down a dead-end road.

Thanks for the kind words! We don't need filthy rich; we're already living the gearhead/engineers dream each and every day we get to help you guys go faster and look cooler. We've really enjoyed working with the ft86 community to bring you guys products that you want/need. We have a TON of experience with exhaust design and manufacturing and when the time is right, we'll be raising the bar where that's concerned. Check out a couple of our videos from other subaru exhaust revisions/design. Hurry, before Chase sees that I'm posting off-topic in his thread!

Matt
Engineering

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt4ctbMk5PM"]GrimmSpeed - Subaru Divorced Downpipe Release - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSKunE1nL7s&list=UU3Yba4Yekzq3no0EX-ueyrA&index=3"]GrimmSpeed Exhaust Lineup Update and Re-Release - YouTube[/ame]

[mottor]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Haha, it is morning. I've gotta get my coffee and brush the snow off the BRZ (wtf?) before we start having too much fun.

You nailed it. We used the FARO arm to plot points on the strut towers with the car in a number of different states (corner lifted, different bars, etc). Like Chase mentioned, it's not a perfect simulation of how the chassis behaves on the road/track, but we were able to get enough solid, repeatable data that we can be confident that we aren't traveling down a dead-end road.

Thanks for the kind words! We don't need filthy rich; we're already living the gearhead/engineers dream each and every day we get to help you guys go faster and look cooler. We've really enjoyed working with the ft86 community to bring you guys products that you want/need. We have a TON of experience with exhaust design and manufacturing and when the time is right, we'll be raising the bar where that's concerned. Check out a couple of our videos from other subaru exhaust revisions/design. Hurry, before Chase sees that I'm posting off-topic in his thread!

Matt
Engineering

Speaking of exhaust, I'm sure we'd all like to see a header that posts some big numbers. Particularly one that isn't astronomically expensive. Everyone has their hands in the catback market right now, and a lot of vendors are making front pipes and over pipes. Headers seem to be the fewest in number. You know what they say, if you build it, they will come.

[norsamerican]

Albeit, down the road, id like to see 3-4 color options, anodized. In the past ive accidently been wrenching on the car and chipped paint on powdercoated strut bars.
-Also be nice to have optional replacements for the other two bars
-While the design of the bar is simple enough i think to set the bar apart from the competition there needs to be a stylized engraving/small ridges/textures on the bar. (Especially if prices are going to be simliar to those already offered.)

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by norsamerican

Albeit, down the road, id like to see 3-4 color options, anodized. In the past ive accidently been wrenching on the car and chipped paint on powdercoated strut bars.
-While the design of the bar is simple enough i think to set the bar apart from the competition there needs to be a stylized engraving/small ridges/textures on the bar. (Especially if prices are going to be simliar to those already offered.)

Sorry, I am going go with the simple, clean, oem and minimalistic with the most efficient industrial design.

Fruit loop colours, giant engravings/lables/logos can end up pretty tacky in most cases.

[norsamerican]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Sorry, I am going go with the simple, clean, oem and minimalistic with the most efficient industrial design.

Fruit loop colours, giant engravings/lables/logos can end up pretty tacky in most cases.

There's no reason to apologize to me. Im not the one making the bars im offering an opinion as the OP stated he wanted. I dont believe i mentioned any specific colors, anything about giant engravings, logos, or labels.
I offered opinions on making the bar different from the rest, utilizing different style options. Nowhere did i mention egregious or obscene logos, labels, or giant engravings.

[s2d4]

It already is different.

So far this is the least obnoxious, everything else has some curves (even when they call it straight), hinged, chrome, gold, blue, red, some tacky engraving/cutouts/etching, etc.

I just want it to perform as advertised, looks oem and is cheaper because there is no need to spend extra so it looks like a marketing billboard.

[Gunman]

Straight and hollow for that bar. Any added weight, is even worse when it's up high like that.

Has anyone put a BRz/FR-S on a 7-post, K&C, or even a pull down rig to get data yet?

[GrimmSpeed]

GREAT input so far. And just so everyone is clear, as always, there are no bad ideas in brainstorming. Keep throwing it at us!

I'm just going to do a quick run through of what I'm hearing so far to keep ideas fresh:

-Interested in multiple colors. Whether it is to match our current line, or the stock bars, or just colors that people like.

-Welded as opposed to hinged. I haven't heard a single person yet who wants it fastened together with hardware.

-Mounting location. Specifically, how rigid/effective specific mounting strategies are. We certainly are concerned about that too. Initial testing with the prototype shows that the 2 stud area is robust, but we have not delved into any comprehensive testing yet. Just to put a little perspective on it though: These points were designed to take load from the stock triangulation bars. The length of the studs seems to indicate that they designed them with the assumption that aftermarket companies would utilize them for this purpose. Additionally, TRD has utilized this mounting point for their very own strut bar (although STI opted to use the strut mounts). We'll get there, but we're just not at that point yet.

-Price. We really want this to MSRP at or below $150. As always, we will maximize performance and minimize price, but not at the sacrifice of quality or aesthetics. Sometimes it makes our job very difficult, but that's when we do our best work. I'd like to use the hood struts as a reference; we were able to produce a product that is higher quality (fit, finish AND function), entirely American made, substantially outperforms the competition, and at a similar price. It sounds impossible, it really does. But we did it, we do it, and we're going to keep doing it.

-OEM appearance. If the final design is intended to function with the stock triangulation bars, it might be nice if the bar appeared like it was stock too. We typically don't do super "blingy" stuff, but that is neither right nor wrong. We will go the route that our customers want!

-Replacement triangulation bars. We hear you, and we would love to hear more! Lots of people are interested in having matching replacements, even if there is little to no performance benefit (not necessarily true, I'm just saying worst case scenario). We're also still interested to hear how many people want the triangulation bars integrated, even if it means raising the MSRP (again worst case scenario) and offering a product that a couple of other companies kind of already offer.

-Pre-load adjustment. Typically adjusting preload is most useful on older vehicles that have experienced a lot of chassis deflection already in order to get the brace to even fit. It does raise cost a fairly significant amount, and we'll be working on determining if it is necessary at all.

-Branding/aesthetic features. We really don't want to get ahead of ourselves just yet, so hit us with your ideas. RazBRZ had mentioned an optional metal logo like on our hood struts, that's good thinking! Keep em coming!

-Length of studs. Replacing them to install a strut bar would suck. I know the maximum material thickness I can use for a bracket while still maintaining safe and effective thread engagement, so that is a limiting factor (especially when thinking about making this out of aluminum). As mentioned before I believe these are designed to be intentionally long to facilitate aftermarket use.

-Weight. I think we can all agree that we'd like to keep any unnecessary weight to a minimum. BUT, adding a few ounces to make something more beautiful might be acceptable?

-Fitment. Fitment with other aftermarket parts and stock parts. Being able to keep this low profile (more effective, stronger, lighter, less bulbous) can be difficult when trying to accommodate to other parts. Right now I can say that we can clear the noise generator, but not the AC line with the prototype. Some other braces you can currently buy will eventually damage the AC line from abrasion. If we ran with the current design, we're thinking a compromise in order to keep the design low profile will either be a clip or sheath to protect the line, as damaging it and potentially venting refrigerant is not an option. Other designs make the strut bar mount much higher in order to minimize rubbing, which is ugly to some, and adds weight higher up in the vehicle. Also, we will try and maximize fitment with aftermarket parts, but some things just won't be possible (supercharger most likely won't clear).

-Aluminum. I'll be looking into cost vs weight vs performance of a few options. Off the top of my head I've been worried about being able to produce a strong enough bracket that still safely bolts to the stud on top of the stock triangulation bar. That's nothing a little FEA can't solve though

-Other Stuffs. Shankenstein: I think Matt answered most of your question after seeing how vague my first post was. The quick and dirty deflection test was jacking the car up on the passenger side at the factory jacking point on the pinch weld until the tire was 1 inch off the ground. And just to put a number to the picture, the maximum deflection (unloaded vs no STB or triangulation bars) was 0.081in. This was determined using our Faro Arm and a program that allows us to directly digitize into Solidworks. I then overlaid them together. I had planned on doing a more dedicated post about testing after I used a few more methods. Btw, I love your work and what you're doing for the community
Mottor: Even when I was a teenager I have always been passionate about intake and exhaust manifold design, it's honestly one of my favorite things in the world. There are some pretty awesome developments coming out as far as exhaust manifolds go. And like Matt said, we're pretty darn good at exhaust stuff. I honestly can't say when we're going to start doing exhaust for the twins (interpret that verbiage however you want) .

I hope you can tell that we've read every single post so far. We always do. Everyone who has contributed so far did a great job and has provided something valuable to us. This post got a bit longer than I would have liked, but I just get so excited about this stuff, especially when I get to do it with TONS of other car guys. Thank you all so much, and KEEP POSTING!

Chase
Engineering

[Ranatsu]

I like this.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by stockysnail

If you're able to keep the price around $100 (ideally exactly $100) then I'd buy it.

No way!! If it doesn't cost $102.47 I'm not buying it!

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

-OEM appearance. If the final design is intended to function with the stock triangulation bars, it might be nice if the bar appeared like it was stock too.

This.
Personally I would prefer plain black, no logo. I appreciate from a marketing point of view this might not be the best option for GrimmSpeed. I have the Perrin intake fitted and have put black tape around the tube over the logo. I have tried to peel it off to no avail. I prefer the look of a plain under bonnet/hood, not cluttered with 1/2 dozen different brand names.

I really really like the look! Stark functionally.

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Some other braces you can currently buy will eventually damage the AC line from abrasion. If we ran with the current design, we're thinking a compromise in order to keep the design low profile will either be a clip or sheath to protect the line

Maybe something as simple as a clip similar to this would be sufficient. Perhaps where the coolant hose passes through would need to be rubberised to stop flex wear. Just a suggestion.

[sierra]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

-Replacement triangulation bars. We hear you, and we would love to hear more! Lots of people are interested in having matching replacements, even if there is little to no performance benefit (not necessarily true, I'm just saying worst case scenario). We're also still interested to hear how many people want the triangulation bars integrated, even if it means raising the MSRP (again worst case scenario) and offering a product that a couple of other companies kind of already offer.

-Length of studs. Replacing them to install a strut bar would suck. I know the maximum material thickness I can use for a bracket while still maintaining safe and effective thread engagement, so that is a limiting factor (especially when thinking about making this out of aluminum). As mentioned before I believe these are designed to be intentionally long to facilitate aftermarket use.

-Weight. I think we can all agree that we'd like to keep any unnecessary weight to a minimum. BUT, adding a few ounces to make something more beautiful might be acceptable?

-Aluminum. I'll be looking into cost vs weight vs performance of a few options. Off the top of my head I've been worried about being able to produce a strong enough bracket that still safely bolts to the stud on top of the stock triangulation bar. That's nothing a little FEA can't solve though

Chase
Engineering

How about making all 3 bars in aluminium with the rear bars bolting to the front bar mounting? That will mean plenty of stud to allow for a strong[thick] strut mounting bracket and also keep freight down because the 3 bars can be packed together.

Have you weighed the front bars?

A small weight gain for beautiful curves is always acceptable to me.

[RazBRZ]

I would like to see you make the triangle bars. But keep them separate, as an option and or a completely separate buy altogether. Also I run a Crawford AOS, So keeping with the OEM look with similar mounting is important for me. Other than that, I like everything you stated above and I can't wait to see what happens