Boosted BRZ/FR-S vs 997 Carrera S

[serialk11r]

I like to dream about spending money so I've thought about this before, and I decided that I don't think I would leave a Porsche stock if I bought one (lol). The 991s are actually pretty perfect right out the box (I would only change the wheels to smaller ones since I hate huge wheels, lithium battery, and exhaust) and super capable on the track too, but I feel like it's kind of wasteful to track a 991 when a Lotus or Cayman would be cheaper. I feel like if Porsche stays committed to the manual transmission I may make a very bad financial decision in the near future with one of the next few 911 refreshes.

The 987/997 have a few bits of "dinosaur" that kind of bother me and they are honestly pretty heavy cars for their size as the curb weights are underestimated, but there are a lot of aftermarket parts to cope with that and they're very tempting bargains right now. Weight reduction is straightforward but expensive, you fork out many thousands for the Cayman R/Boxster Spyder aluminum doors, composite panels, etc. and you'll end up around the curb weight of the BRZ. The good thing is that the engines are pretty solid and extremely powerful, although the dinosaur belt driven steering pump should ideally be tossed out and replaced with an EHPS pump.

I feel like if you're going to spend 45k and rear seats don't matter, a modded 987 Cayman makes way more sense, and a 997 would be best if you can avoid throwing money at mods. For 30k I'd go modded BRZ over stock old Porsche (unless there's a way to cram a Subaru ER30 into a 996 chassis for cheap, that would be a fun car!). BRZ/FRS mods are honestly kind of expensive, exhaust parts are on par with Porsche aftermarket exhausts and there are a lot more components for which moditis will strike :P

[Bawlz]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I feel like if you're going to spend 45k and rear seats don't matter, a modded 987 Cayman makes way more sense, and a 997 would be best if you can avoid throwing money at mods. For 30k I'd go modded BRZ over stock old Porsche (unless there's a way to cram a Subaru ER30 into a 996 chassis for cheap, that would be a fun car!). BRZ/FRS mods are honestly kind of expensive, exhaust parts are on par with Porsche aftermarket exhausts and there are a lot more components for which moditis will strike :P

For 30k you can get a 964 which is lighter than a BRZ, and have some modding money left over. It really surprised me how expensive FT86 mods are, even though it's a new platform. The car was built with modding in mind though.

Maybe we'll see LS & 2JZ swaps that are actually affordable similar to the e30 & Miata while FI numbers are even with STI's.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Bawlz

For 30k you can get a 964 which is lighter than a BRZ, and have some modding money left over.

Going by Rennlist, the curb weight on the 964 is actually 3031 lbs, even for the lighter C2 spec.

http://members.rennlist.com/jfk964/porsche_964_faq.htm

Curb weight on the FR-S is 2758 lbs. BRZ is a bit more, but still under 2800 lbs.

I think the only version of the 964 that's lighter than the Twins is the Club Sport model (no a/c, stereo, power switches, rear seats, sound deadening, etc.)

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Going by Rennlist, the curb weight on the 964 is actually 3031 lbs, even for the lighter C2 spec.

I think if you dump the 500+ lb aircooled engine for a better performing 300lb EZ30R you'll end up at around 86 curb weight lol.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I think if you dump the 500+ lb aircooled engine for a better performing 300lb ER30 you'll end up at around 86 curb weight lol.

964 with an engine swap sounds like it has a lot of potential. I have no idea what an ER30 is though.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

964 with an engine swap sounds like it has a lot of potential. I have no idea what an ER30 is though.

3L Subaru H6 with AVLS (two cam profiles)? I think it's designated ER30. It would be nice if Subaru came out with a newer H6 but anything is an improvement over aircooled or the terrible M96/97 designs.

That said, the Subie engine isn't very powerful out the box and has a low rev limit despite the variable lift, but it costs like what, 15k less than a Porsche engine? so you have plenty of money to upgrade the moving bits inside the engine.

EDIT: my bad, it's EZ30R lol

[Pat]

I'd hardly say the M96 and M97 engines are terrible. Sure a very small percentage of them have IMS issues which are catastrophic. But unless you have to deal with that, they are wonderful. Miles better than any engine Subaru has ever built.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Pat

I'd hardly say the M96 and M97 engines are terrible. Sure a very small percentage of them have IMS issues which are catastrophic. But unless you have to deal with that, they are wonderful. Miles better than any engine Subaru has ever built.

That's what I thought until I did a lot of reading and found very very few 996/997.1 owners have engines lasting much over 100k miles. The IMS is a stupid design to begin with and adds considerable mass. The cylinder walls are weak and the rod bolts are weak, which leads to blown short blocks.

It's not just 9a1 engines that they are worse in comparison to, the first gen M96s had the stupidest chain tensioner VVT system that had the cams advanced almost all the time, leading to poor fuel economy and heavy chain guide wear.

[Pat]

Own one. Live with it. Drive the competition. You'll see they are great engines.
Do they have faults? Sure. But there aren't many other engines out there that do things as well as Porsche flat sixes (given a certain year and reasonable price).
I sold mine with 115,000 miles on it.

[donoman]

I'm not going to read this whole thread. Instead I'll chime in here:

I own a 1990 964. I've driven a 997 C4S and also a 991 C4S PDK. Oh and a 981 Boxster S.

Unfortunately, the FR-S/BRZ will never come close to being the total package that a 911 presents itself as. It is a car that is sophisticated on bumpy roads, stable and quiet on the freeway, and absolutely rips when it's time to put the pedal to the metal. The '86 will be able to meet a 911 in terms of power (FI) or handling or whatever, but it will always be an aftermarket compromise full of trade-offs and problems.

Upkeep on these P-cars IS more expensive because parts are more expensive. But they are built VERY well. The mindset is very different than that of BMW. BMW's are hot-rodded family cars in my opinion (and I've owned lots of them) whereas Porsches are sports cars from the ground-up. The only BMW I have bought and kept for many years is our Z4 2.5i. It's a great car that doesn't get a lot of attention.

The 911 is the ultimate car. You can daily drive it, and then bring it to the track on the weekend. I think the '86 has a very similar usability balance as a 911, though, and that's why I love it. It's the first car I've really enjoyed this much and I LOVE that it's so cheap!

[donoman]

Originally Posted by Kiske

I'd have an expensiver car and more expensive mods. Essentially the same game with higher stakes.

When I bought my 964, I thought the same thing, too. I ended up buying an exhaust, chip, lowering springs, wheels... but then the modding stopped. The car was perfect. It's stayed that way for almost 10 years. I've felt no need to change it at all. Aside from the stupidest windshield wipers I've ever seen, you realize you're so close to perfection that you just don't want to muck it up by modding!!!

[EAGLE5]

Yep, the twins are most of the fun for a hell of a lot less money.

[Grip Ronin]

I took the easiest solution. Drive a frs and work at porsche as a mechanic lol.. 981 s is an amazing car. Its so much fun. 987 not so much

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

3L Subaru H6 with AVLS (two cam profiles)? I think it's designated ER30. It would be nice if Subaru came out with a newer H6 but anything is an improvement over aircooled or the terrible M96/97 designs.

That said, the Subie engine isn't very powerful out the box and has a low rev limit despite the variable lift, but it costs like what, 15k less than a Porsche engine? so you have plenty of money to upgrade the moving bits inside the engine.

EDIT: my bad, it's EZ30R lol

Ah yeah I thought you may have meant the EZ30.

Originally Posted by Grip Ronin

I took the easiest solution. Drive a frs and work at porsche as a mechanic lol.. 981 s is an amazing car. Its so much fun. 987 not so much

Interesting you say that. I haven't driven a 981 S yet, but used to own a 987.2 Boxster S and loved it. I hear the new 981 is more refined and faster, but offers less feedback overall, especially through the steering rack. Some folks I talked to prefer the way the older cars drive for that raw/visceral feel. Would you say that's accurate?