What's Going on Between Toyota & Subaru on the Convertible Version of the 86/FR-S/BRZ

[dori.]

Originally Posted by Grishbok

Look at what happened to the Sebring.

Was there a market? yes, albeit, an outrageously tiny one of people that thought everyone was laughing at their silly hat instead of the car, but no, it was the car we were all laughing at.

The car became a laughing stock of mediocrity. The convertible market is already full, theres not enough of a void to retool an assembly line for a cabrio.

The fiat 500 convertible/ vw beetle fill the entry level, then theres the miata, then theres the moo-stang, then the audi cabriolet. That pretty much sums up and satisfies any potential candidate to purchase a convertible.

Subaru is right, building a convertible would be a mistake.
They should instead turn their attention too....

TARGA TOP!!!!!!!

what do all those cars (except for the MX-5) have in common?
hardtop versions.

the demand is there.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

Yes. Tada san said that in some of the interview already.

- He wanted a cheap, good handling compact, rwd. But Subaru wanted a DI system, and Toyota had no engine developed for the project, Subaru proposed FA20. Subaru got the DI system, and the designed car. Toyota got FA20 engine, and their badge on the product. 86 was born.

- The FA20 and the supportive drive train for it cost more than what Toyota first anticipated, because FA20 was originally designed to be turbo charged from Subaru side. The result is a Production vehicle which costs more than the original plan from Toyota. They wanted it to be sub 22k

- The contract tide both up in a way that neither of them can use any power upgrade to the car. Until 5 year pass, they can do whatever. Which is 2015. Therefore, people assumes 2016 model will have BRZ STI.

- Tada san is sticking with his original plan, that he is currently developing an Inline 4 turbo charged for it, he is also testing the super capacitors as well. Tada san is expecting that the second gen 86 will be a complete development from toyota.

By all those rumors. Expect to see BRZ STI with 2.0 turbo charged, and FRS 2.5 by Scion. Expect STI to be north of 30k...and 2.5 FRS to be 28-30k. If you ever want to buy this ToyoBaru, the 2.5 FRS will be the last from toyota before it is gone forever

The thing about those interviews is that they say one thing this week and than an opposing statement down the road. So I'm not sure what to believe anymore

[gymratter]

yeah i dont really listen to those "interviews" either. i think sometimes they give you false statement to throw you off because they dont want us to know what they really have planned.

one example is when tada san said the supra successor wont be a hybrid. but reports now are that it will be. would make sense, NSX II and R36 have been confirmed as hybrid.

[vh_supra26]

Off topic, but it seems that the BMW/Toyota midsize coupe (Supra successor) is now rumored for Detroit.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by mackdaddytran

Recognize your username from H-I

Good to see a few people from the local forums

[Whitigir]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Off topic, but it seems that the BMW/Toyota midsize coupe (Supra successor) is now rumored for Detroit.

I hear it different lol. I hear BMW and Toyota is going for LFA II with hybrid power train twice the car, twice the cost. We are looking at 850-900 hp motors together with engine, and it won't be the v10. It will cost in the 1 million range. Something to compete with La-Ferrari, I think.

I hear the Supra successor will be Toyota product alone, it will be based on 86 chassis, longer wheels base to balance the engine, V6 engine integrated turbo charges with DI and VVTI.

But non the less, there are rumors for it to be shown soon. Aikido Toyota is pushing on it, and his engineering teams are saying that for what he want to achieve, and the cost of the production models, it will not be productive. But Mr. Toyota want it....so we will see

[gymratter]

^and the rumor mills continues.

[Takuro]

Subaru puts Toyota on blast about a convertible saying it requires a drastic redesign, yet they had a concept hatch based on the 86/BRZ platform. Sounds like they are fighting over the platform and where to take it. Subaru wants their hatch since the new generation of WRX is sedan only and Toyota wants a sedan and convertible. I foresee Toyota dropping Subaru and building the 86 (and future cars which share the platform) in their own plant in the future and putting a real engine in the car. Toyota built the ISF and LFA. They can make badass cars.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Accurate Race Shop

The only issue is that if the sales numbers do not increase these cars will go away. They will not reach 15k (last I checked) cars sold this year for the fr-s. 15k might sound like a lot but ford has sold over a half million pickups this year at a higher profit margin.

Yeah it must have been a long time since you checked, 14.7k sold as of September:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10766

Also to everyone else check out whitigir's post history, I would consider him as a source 'less than credible' since he is overwhelmingly negative about the Toyobaru in its current form.

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

Yes. Tada san said that in some of the interview already.

- He wanted a cheap, good handling compact, rwd. But Subaru wanted a DI system, and Toyota had no engine developed for the project, Subaru proposed FA20. Subaru got the DI system, and the designed car. Toyota got FA20 engine, and their badge on the product. 86 was born.

- The FA20 and the supportive drive train for it cost more than what Toyota first anticipated, because FA20 was originally designed to be turbo charged from Subaru side. The result is a Production vehicle which costs more than the original plan from Toyota. They wanted it to be sub 22k

- The contract tide both up in a way that neither of them can use any power upgrade to the car. Until 5 year pass, they can do whatever. Which is 2015. Therefore, people assumes 2016 model will have BRZ STI.

- Tada san is sticking with his original plan, that he is currently developing an Inline 4 turbo charged for it, he is also testing the super capacitors as well. Tada san is expecting that the second gen 86 will be a complete development from toyota.

By all those rumors. Expect to see BRZ STI with 2.0 turbo charged, and FRS 2.5 by Scion. Expect STI to be north of 30k...and 2.5 FRS to be 28-30k. If you ever want to buy this ToyoBaru, the 2.5 FRS will be the last from toyota before it is gone forever

i think OP is talking about a new 2nd gen and not the facelift 2015 frs.

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by Takuro

Subaru puts Toyota on blast about a convertible saying it requires a drastic redesign, yet they had a concept hatch based on the 86/BRZ platform. Sounds like they are fighting over the platform and where to take it. Subaru wants their hatch since the new generation of WRX is sedan only and Toyota wants a sedan and convertible. I foresee Toyota dropping Subaru and building the 86 (and future cars which share the platform) in their own plant in the future and putting a real engine in the car. Toyota built the ISF and LFA. They can make badass cars.

Have you ever ridden in or driven and ISF? They are without a doubt the absolute most uncomfortable riding car in the world. No one expects a Lexus to bounce, jitter, turn your spine to mush and crash over every niggle in the road.

The LFA was amazing but not really all that useful.

Toyota does not currently have any capacity anywhere that I'm aware of to add a car to production. Remember Subaru not only builds the 86 twins, but 100k Camry's a year due to a lack of capacity.

[gymratter]

^i think the LFA factory is sitting empty now.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

I hear it different lol. I hear BMW and Toyota is going for LFA II with hybrid power train twice the car, twice the cost. We are looking at 850-900 hp motors together with engine, and it won't be the v10. It will cost in the 1 million range. Something to compete with La-Ferrari, I think.

I hear the Supra successor will be Toyota product alone, it will be based on 86 chassis, longer wheels base to balance the engine, V6 engine integrated turbo charges with DI and VVTI.

But non the less, there are rumors for it to be shown soon. Aikido Toyota is pushing on it, and his engineering teams are saying that for what he want to achieve, and the cost of the production models, it will not be productive. But Mr. Toyota want it....so we will see

I heard of that rumor too, but people seem to bring up some good interesting points.

1. I think Lexus has said in the past that supercars like the LFA will only happen every 20 years or so.

2. BMW/Toyota press release has confirmed the car will be a midsize coupe.

3. I believe the LF-LC will become the next halo car for Lexus.

4. BMW has said every car that it makes needs to make a profit, otherwise the won't built it (LFA loss money).

But again, just rumors, so who really knows.

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by Accurate Race Shop

The only issue is that if the sales numbers do not increase these cars will go away. They will not reach 15k (last I checked) cars sold this year for the fr-s. 15k might sound like a lot but ford has sold over a half million pickups this year at a higher profit margin. This shows way more people like trucks than sports cars which might make toyota drop the fr-s and spend the money developing another truck or really ramping up the tundra. This happened in the 90s when toyota discontinued all sports cars that were aimed for the masses and went on to build compact family cars as they had a higher demand. At the end of the day every company is in it for the money and if these don't start making some more money I doubt they will last long. So don't get upset when you see an old lady driving one she is just ensuring that these cars stay around and progress in the coming years.

Sent from my Q10

u should check again because sales are pretty good.