..Starting the quest for total neutrality.

[HatchirokuV2.0]

So, I've recently purchased my beautiful "Raven". A 2013 Scion FRS in the Pearlescent Black. Bone stock, very clean. I've had it for nearly a month now. I've learned it's limitations pretty well on the Eagle RS-A's it has and the stock suspension. I'm putting a parts list together for what I want to do to the car.

So har I have Racecomp Engineering Yellow Shocks. I'm looking at sway bars and endlinks/chassis bracing now. What set of bars combined together with what adjustable end links with 250lb/in front and rear spring rates will give me neutrality? or close to 50/50?

Is there some FRS/BRZ suspension calculator like FCM has a Miata suspension calculator? If so, please link me! I like being able to crunch the numbers and find what is going to be best.

[swarb]

neutral is relative. too many variables.
1. tires.
2. driving style.
3. conditions.
4. speed.
5. sum of parts.

[Captain Snooze]

I am suggesting a brand that does a front and rear sway kit. Preferably adjustable. This way you are getting close to matched sway bar stiffness front and rear plus you can dial them in a little yourself.
Both Eibach and Whiteline do an adjustable kit but there are probably other kits out there.

[ryoma]

I would go with the Hotchkis swaybar set. the front have 2 settings and rear have 4 settings. it's also developed for the stock endlinks. I'm also getting RCE yellows, but in the opposite order as you. swaybars first then springs for me. also look into a rear LCA if you don't want too much negative camber. my plan is to get the hotchkis set, go to the track, then get the RCE's and racerX LCA before going to the track again. the $$ adds up over time when modding your car even though it doesn't seem like it lol

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by ryoma

the $$ adds up over time when modding your car even though it doesn't seem like it lol

This.
Don't make the mistake of keeping a record of what you have spent on your car. It will end in tears.

[DarkSunrise]

The term "total neutrality" can be a bit ambiguous. Do you mean completely neutral (i.e., 4 wheel drift) in a corner with just maintenance throttle? At what speed/radius?

I ask because I suspect a car that's setup like that will feel very loose to most. Any trail-braking will bring the rear end around, and you'll have to be careful with the throttle. I think it'll also be slower on a lot of courses because of inability to get power down on exit, unless you're absolutely comfortable managing oversteer.

A tiny bit of front-end push is good for stability -- especially on higher speed corners -- and you can use trail-braking to fight the slight understeer entering corners. Just my 2c as someone who also prefers "neutral-ish" setups.

[Racecomp Engineering]

We do also make an RCE swaybar set (hollow bars front and rear).

A lot of it will come down to alignment and making the most of the tires as you can. You may want to consider camber bolts or plates if you don't have them yet. A good amount of "from the seat" balance comes from alignment.

- Andrew

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

A lot of it will come down to alignment and making the most of the tires as you can.

GOSPEL RIGHT HERE.

[strat61caster]

First off what is the car doing that you are trying to correct? What isn't neutral? You cannot hope to get a proper answer from "make my car neutral" because anything anyone prescribes may work for them but not for you.

My experience is useless because I don't know what RCE does to the balance, but what they say above is absolutely true, you can get a totally neutral car from alignment tweaks alone if that's your goal, I'm really happy with stock suspension + front camber plates and 200TW competitive tires. On stock springs/dampers the car really likes having >-2.5 degrees camber up front.

Edit: Autocross? Track? High speed track or low speed track? Canyons? Drift?

[HatchirokuV2.0]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

First off what is the car doing that you are trying to correct? What isn't neutral? You cannot hope to get a proper answer from "make my car neutral" because anything anyone prescribes may work for them but not for you.

My experience is useless because I don't know what RCE does to the balance, but what they say above is absolutely true, you can get a totally neutral car from alignment tweaks alone if that's your goal, I'm really happy with stock suspension + front camber plates and 200TW competitive tires. On stock springs/dampers the car really likes having >-2.5 degrees camber up front.

Edit: Autocross? Track? High speed track or low speed track? Canyons? Drift?

I drive like a bat out of hell in the mountains. I have noticed that the vehicle is prone to mainly oversteer (although yes, that was its intent from Toyota) and I'd like to be able to dial out that. There is little understeer I've seen with the vehicle, and what understeer I have seen was EASILY correctable. I want a vehicle in short, that if I push it to its limits, it won't favour either under or oversteer; 4-wheel drifting, essentially. I also wanted a slightly lower vehicle (~20mm front and rear, which is why the RCE Yellows are a choice) with use of stock struts to maintain reliability. I know lowering a vehicle with stock sway bars and endlinks normally upsets the preload of the sway bar, negatively impacting handling characteristics. I'm aiming for a 200 UTQG tire. Something in the area of RS3 v2's, Rival S's (I had the Rival in a 225/45/15 on my NB1 Miata) and the RE71R categories as far as performance. 17x9 Ambit RE02's are my rim choice that I want. Looking for something aggressive enough with OK reliability. Driver modding is the cheapest and easiest, and so far I have feeling that I've fared well with driving this car.



Is there a specific precision alignment that is advertised on any of the FRS forums that improve handling characteristics with stock tires/rims/suspension?

I know in my Miatas I preferred 5+* Caster for initial turn in with zero toe and ~1.5* camber.

[RJasonKlein]

Even the FR-S has a fair bit of understeer built in, although nobody will argue that oversteer can't be induced at will on tight twisties at lower speeds. My point is that the oversteer you're describing is caused by your driving style - it's really that simple.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by HatchirokuV2.0

I drive like a bat out of hell in the mountains. I have noticed that the vehicle is prone to mainly oversteer (although yes, that was its intent from Toyota) and I'd like to be able to dial out that.

The funny part of this is, if you wanted more neutral handling you should've gotten a BRZ to start.

-alex

[cjd]

It feels silly to echo the previous comments, but... alignment?

Regardless of where you define "neutral" it's driver input that keeps it there. ANY reasonable setup can be made to understeer or oversteer simply by changing driver input. Understeer is "safer" in general, but a car that's slightly tuned to oversteer can be held at its limits quite easily once you know them, but still requires tuning to the comfort level and particular habits of each driver.

Tuning out an undesired behavior in a given scenario may be easier - corner entry or exit, on throttle or off? ... but may still be driver input. If I had tuned for what felt "neutral" this spring, I'd be upset about balance today... only thing that has changed is the driver.

C

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by HatchirokuV2.0

Is there a specific precision alignment that is advertised on any of the FRS forums that improve handling characteristics with stock tires/rims/suspension?

I know in my Miatas I preferred 5+* Caster for initial turn in with zero toe and ~1.5* camber.

Are you planning on using front camber plates/bolts or rear LCAs?

- Andrew