Need help: Vortech Supercharger kit with stock MAP sensor 8.5psi

[Figo]

Anyone tried to use stock MAP sensor with Vortech kit on 9psi?

It seems like my tuner has a problem using the 3 bar omni MAP sensor. Here is their response:

"he was having some issues that may have been related to software, but we’re still not sure. We were swapping the MAP sensor back and forth to try and help find the issue and when it finally started working as it should, we had the stock MAP sensor on. So he did finish tuning it with the stock MAP and you should not need the 3-bar. However, you may want to keep it in case you want to go to a smaller pulley for more boost later – then it would be a requirement."

I have contacted Vortech and they told me that the complete kit come with 2.5 bar map sensor and the tuner kit does not come with any map sensor. So I think when the tuner said "stock MAP", he meant the one originally on my car not the one come with the kit.

I have emailed the tuner but have not get any feedback yet. So I assume that they might run less boost than 9psi in order to complete the tune right? As a result I might get lower number on dyno.

Or is it safe to run 9psi on stock MAP sensor? The tuner shop is kinda reputable in my area. So I think they should be correct. They said the stock MAP sensor was not maxed out

But I doubt that the stock MAP sensor will the a good and reliable choice. And everyone including Vortech do not think the stock MAP sensor will be ok.

Anyone has any idea?

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Updated:

I got feedback from the tuner and they told me that the person who tuned the car will not be in the shop until next Monday. The car was set to be 9psi but he was not sure. Dyno result is 265/200. with Stock MAP that originally on my car.

I contact Vortech technical department and they strongly suggest me not to use the factory MAP sensor. I think there might be a reason why Vortech's complete kit come with a 2.5 bar map sensor and why they strongly recommend me not to run stock one. Also, I am not able to find any evidence about a 9 psi Vortech FR-S/BRZ with stock MAP sensor.

I dont know who is correct.

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[Foobar]

Dude, the manufacturer of your Supercharger Kit has come out and told you flat out that they don't suggest you use the factory sensor - they know what's best for their kit, especially since they're the ones warrantying it. Nothing we here on this forum tell you will provide you with any coverage for malfunctions if we advise you incorrectly. Go with what Vortech says.

Frankly, I question the capabilities of your tuner if they couldn't get it to work with the correct sensor, and then proceeded to use a non-spec sensor in its place and sent you off on your merry way. That's not cool. Who is this tuner? I'm not saying it can't be done, but when the kit manufacturer tells you not to do it, I'd listen to them. If anything goes wrong with your kit down the road, be it related to the wrong sensor or not, Vortech now has it on record that you've performed an incorrect installation procedure against their strong urging not to.

[Liquid6]

Yes what he said:
Find a better tuner!!! @Mike@motoeast

[Figo]

Originally Posted by Liquid6

Yes what he said:
Find a better tuner!!! @Mike@motoeast

Originally Posted by Foobar

Dude, the manufacturer of your Supercharger Kit has come out and told you flat out that they don't suggest you use the factory sensor - they know what's best for their kit, especially since they're the ones warrantying it. Nothing we here on this forum tell you will provide you with any coverage for malfunctions if we advise you incorrectly. Go with what Vortech says.

Frankly, I question the capabilities of your tuner if they couldn't get it to work with the correct sensor, and then proceeded to use a non-spec sensor in its place and sent you off on your merry way. That's not cool. Who is this tuner? I'm not saying it can't be done, but when the kit manufacturer tells you not to do it, I'd listen to them. If anything goes wrong with your kit down the road, be it related to the wrong sensor or not, Vortech now has it on record that you've performed an incorrect installation procedure against their strong urging not to.

Thank you guys.

EFI Logics, CT. They are one of the best.

I think they tune it in a hurry at night because the tuner had a travel plan the next day. He will come back next Monday. And they use the factory sensor because they thought that I need this car this weekend.

It is my daily drive car and I also have track days at Sept. 6th and in Nov. at NJMP. So reliability is my top concern. As the tuner said in previous emails, even themselves recommended 3 bar one(or 2.5). So I think it doesn't make sense if factory one is good enough but everyone including the tuner and Vortech told me that I need a 2.5 bar or 3 bar MAP. I use most reliable parts on my car, and I dont want to cut the corner to use the factory MAP even if it might be just ok.

I will wait till Monday and require a tune with the 3 bar MAP on the car. My concern is that at that time if they told me that the factory MAP is not maxed out and should be fine. I dont know who I am going to trust. Vortech said they are "not sure", but strongly not recommend factory sensor. I would do the same thing if I were the manufacture and is I were not sure about something that might have potential issue. However, it does not means that the factory sensor is not ok because Vortech did not test them. And EFI Logics, I have never hear about anything bad about them.

[Foobar]

EFI knows their shit. Did they sell you the kit? I'm surprised they'd suggest you use the stock sensor if so but if they're just tuning for you then yeah I guess I can see it given the circumstances you described above.

The Omni sensors have been known to have some bum units. You can pick up a replacement for around $100 if need be.

[Figo]

Originally Posted by Foobar

EFI knows their shit. Did they sell you the kit? I'm surprised they'd suggest you use the stock sensor if so but if they're just tuning for you then yeah I guess I can see it given the circumstances you described above.

The Omni sensors have been known to have some bum units. You can pick up a replacement for around $100 if need be.

No I bring the kit there, brand new. They installed it. I know that they are one of the best tunerd, so I drive 3 hours to do the project.

I got the sensor from ft86speedfactory, and I think if it is a bum one. I would ask EFI to order a new one and I will return the bad one.

Here is their recent reply:

No problem Figo, I’d rather that as well, but I thought you had needed it this weekend. With Mikey gone through Monday, that wouldn’t have been a possibility. Tuning itself won’t change as I mentioned – it’s just a change in scaling. I checked the dyno sheet and you are at 8.5psi at 7300RPM. There’s no adjustment for that – that’s purely based on the size of the pulley.

BTW, I would just trust Vortech if someone else tune the car for me. But I know EFI Logics know what they are doing. So I dont know who is correct.

[Bergen23]

Probably the people who make the kit are correct. Not the tuners. Unless the tuners helped develop the kit.

[nelsmar]

Ill say right now that yes you can tune this with the stock sensor. The OEM ecu uses the MAP sensor to decide the pressure differential between the manifold & atmosphere with an idea that the fuel pump is pushing a specific fuel pressure. This is simply to calculate "estimated" injection time for ports which is already inaccurate as the fuel pressure in the rails is going to drop if you start using heavy port... You realistically would only be maxing the MAP sensor out for a short RPM window and this could be "hacked" into the MAF scaling or even better a custom map that compensate the fuel pressure once you hit maximum manifold pressure that can be read.

Vortech's MAF housing is very clean and on the stock pulley there is very little turbulence and the car can be tuned 100% on MAF tuning alone and push the car nicely power wise. If you were on higher boost and you start passing iirc 4.8v or so the MAF tends to lose some accuracy and I end up switching to a hybrid speed density tune so that way i can get a little more accurate load calculation... You would only get somewhat close to this in very cold weather.

And if you are using pump gas you will likely be using MOSTLY direct injection so even if for an example you were using a lot of port say... 20%? and your injection calculation was off due to no map reading and that skewed your fuel quantity buy say.... 10%? thats 20 * 0.10 = 2% fueling error. Thats pretty minor... You already see fueling errors like that when running heavy port due to fuel pressure drop & even inconsistencies from the OEM injectors. Just as an FYI you can basically run that much boost on 100% DI. You would be pushing the DI system pretty aggressively and a little more than you should but it could run. Your tuner is likely only going to run 5-20% port injection at that boost level at redline on pump gas.

If it was my car I would get a map sensor that is large enough and do it right the first time but you really are only barely pushing past the open sensor capabilities. And the MAF from Vortech I would say is as clean if not more clean than the OEM airbox.

tldr; Yes its possible and can even be considered safe to use the stock sensor. I as well as many others have done this on a number of kits that have a clean MAF reading.

[Figo]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

Ill say right now that yes you can tune this with the stock sensor. The OEM ecu uses the MAP sensor to decide the pressure differential between the manifold & atmosphere with an idea that the fuel pump is pushing a specific fuel pressure. This is simply to calculate "estimated" injection time for ports which is already inaccurate as the fuel pressure in the rails is going to drop if you start using heavy port... You realistically would only be maxing the MAP sensor out for a short RPM window and this could be "hacked" into the MAF scaling or even better a custom map that compensate the fuel pressure once you hit maximum manifold pressure that can be read.

Vortech's MAF housing is very clean and on the stock pulley there is very little turbulence and the car can be tuned 100% on MAF tuning alone and push the car nicely power wise. If you were on higher boost and you start passing iirc 4.8v or so the MAF tends to lose some accuracy and I end up switching to a hybrid speed density tune so that way i can get a little more accurate load calculation... You would only get somewhat close to this in very cold weather.

And if you are using pump gas you will likely be using MOSTLY direct injection so even if for an example you were using a lot of port say... 20%? and your injection calculation was off due to no map reading and that skewed your fuel quantity buy say.... 10%? thats 20 * 0.10 = 2% fueling error. Thats pretty minor... You already see fueling errors like that when running heavy port due to fuel pressure drop & even inconsistencies from the OEM injectors. Just as an FYI you can basically run that much boost on 100% DI. You would be pushing the DI system pretty aggressively and a little more than you should but it could run. Your tuner is likely only going to run 5-20% port injection at that boost level at redline on pump gas.

If it was my car I would get a map sensor that is large enough and do it right the first time but you really are only barely pushing past the open sensor capabilities. And the MAF from Vortech I would say is as clean if not more clean than the OEM airbox.

tldr; Yes its possible and can even be considered safe to use the stock sensor. I as well as many others have done this on a number of kits that have a clean MAF reading.

Thank you. Take me some time to try to understand things you said. hah.

So if it is safe to use factory sensor now, is it measn it is going to be safe to use it in the future at any situation? For example if I go track and keep the engine at high RPM for a long time? I can understadn that the error is minor, but if I have a choice to use a 3bar sensor, I would rather use it, especially I have already purchased one. Also, manufacturer warranty is another concern.

I have contacted EFI Logics and they told me that they will try it again with 3bar sensor after the tuner come back this Monday. I hope they will not let me down. I have heared a lot of good things about them.

.

[Figo]

Update:


Seems like they made it. People are right. They are one of the best.

I will go to pick my car up tomr.

[Figo]

I went there this morning and the car was not ok.

As they sad the car was without any issue before. But I even can not start it.

The first time I try it, the car shave really bad and the RPM was really low when I start it. I tried it again, the same thing. And when the third time I try it, it would start. The car just shaked.

I quit the job and drive 3 hours there, still can not drive the car back. Even can not start it. It's a stupid issue. Mikey was not in the shop today. So they were not able to fix it today.

So sad. That's not a good tune.



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