SCCA Solo D Street discussion

[Molez93]

Speaking of DocWalt, depreciation, and racing a generally competitive BRZ...
4 years into racing his old BRZ locally, my depreciation is probably zero. Sure, lots of that is COVID induced market craziness, but that's still cheap even if I'd been hit with 25% depreciation for a competitive, streetable race toy.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by cmiovino

One thing with street touring classes I've seen more locally is that people just don't do street touring as much as street/stock classes. We have huge attendance numbers for DS for example, sometimes 15+ drivers at just a local event, but then only one driver in STX... and it's usually not even a semi-competitive car. This past event, it was someone who normally does drifting and came because he was bored. We're lucky to see one STX semi-prepped twin all year.

Cost-wise, for even street classes, you're looking at $1k in wheels, upgraded shocks, some running MCS and whatnot for $4k, lightweight exhausts for $1k, Karcepts bars for $1k or more, etc. It all adds up for about $5k+ for just street classes. I totally get you can just slap on some wheels/tires and go do street classes, but that's not going to be competitive. And don't even get me started on people running 3+ sets of tires a year or having dedicated rain tires.

A lot of people locally here don't want to go down the street touring rabbit hole and dump even more into a build.

A actually hate the whole classing system period. In street classes, you basically have to be financing and buying a new car every 2-3 years just to stay competitive. CTR is the top dog in DS, everyone's financing the shit out of $50k Civics. 2nd gen BRZ's are out and everyone's financing those and you have 7+ of those sitting in grid. With street classes, the ticket is having the next best thing. At least with street touring, it gives older cars a more even playing field and keeps them relevant longer.

Yeah, street class is a weird thing. It's meant to keep costs down, but truthfully you're not saving much compared to a comparable ST class to be at the pointy end of being nationally competitive. Wheels and tires are more or less even. Shock/coilovers again, not much different when you have people spending $4k plus on shocks alone for street class. Swaybars are the same, maybe adding a rear for some ST cars. There is the basic setup of a ST car. The difference is, there's more to go for ST as you want to gain more of an edge.



As far as competition goes, it's highly car and locality dependent. Like near me there are 3 STR BRZs/GR86, and DS is a lonely class. I've learned to just run the Pro indexed class locally. Most people who show up in open class are multiple seconds slower, and that's just no fun. Whereas 2 of the 3 local clubs have very healthy Pro classes, and while the BRZ is not the car to have for STR, it's still good to compete with the best in each club.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by Molez93

Speaking of DocWalt, depreciation, and racing a generally competitive BRZ...
4 years into racing his old BRZ locally, my depreciation is probably zero. Sure, lots of that is COVID induced market craziness, but that's still cheap even if I'd been hit with 25% depreciation for a competitive, streetable race toy.

I saw you on the results from this past weekend and it's awesome to see my old car still be used and enjoyed!

[Desertnate]

Originally Posted by Locust

They need to do a reshuffling of the classing. It should be a pyramid where you have the bottom, largest layer as street, the next is street touring, and then it reduces more from there as you go up.

Not only that, but there are some really strange grouping of vehicles too.

I'm not deep into the ways of classing like some of you are, but it makes no sense to me to have everything from an Audi S4 to a Civic Type R to the FT86 platform brothers/sisters all in the same class. That's a huge range of curb weights, FWD/ AWD/RWD drivetrains, 4/6 cyclinder engines, N/A and forced induction, etc all in once class.

From my few years in Solo, DS and GS seem to by really odd. When I ran in FS I could at least see an idea of what was being attempted. Some of the other classes...not so much.

[cmiovino]

Originally Posted by Desertnate

I'm not deep into the ways of classing like some of you are, but it makes no sense to me to have everything from an Audi S4 to a Civic Type R to the FT86 platform brothers/sisters all in the same class. That's a huge range of curb weights, FWD/ AWD/RWD drivetrains, 4/6 cyclinder engines, N/A and forced induction, etc all in once class.

From my few years in Solo, DS and GS seem to by really odd. When I ran in FS I could at least see an idea of what was being attempted. Some of the other classes...not so much.

I call DS the misfit class. If it doesn't fit somewhere else, it gets thrown in DS. No class for the WRX and STI, so let's just dump both in DS. BRZ/FRS twins, first and second gen, no class for either of them, dump them both in DS. Civic Type R? 300HP and turbo? Toss it in.

If anything, you could argue DS is more of a sports sedan/hatchback class with the CTR, Elantra N, GR Corolla, WRX/STI. The twins, even the 2nd gen, kinda don't fit when you look at the power level, RWD, etc. They fit more in CS in a way, which is sort of the Miata / S2000, RWD roadster-like class.

I ran my performance pack BRZ in CS in 2020. Had a blast. I was right up there with the ND1's and S2000's. Had fun every week. Constant battles. Then got moved to DS with a better overall PAX, but get crushed by the 2nd gen and CTR.

But all this classing is done via times on some magical course they rank them on.

Personally, I feel the first gen is more of an ES car, but would likely be top dog in ES, bumping the older Miatas and MR2's out. The 2nd gen twin probably fits more in CS, but the ND2's have a edge in terms of times.

... so in a way, the SCCA is basically right with classing for the 2nd gen. But the problem with classes is that there's always going to be cars that are the top to have in a class. Or else you need a class for pretty much every car in a way. It would be almost impossible, but the better comparison would be for each car to have a PAX, classes get thrown out, and we're all competing against each other. Zero way to class every car though.

Going on a total tangent, that's why I like street touring classes more - modifications level the playing field more in terms of autocross when tire and suspension choices make the most difference. Power becomes less of a divider and the modifications make cars more even (mainly suspension, camber, wider tires/wheels). Thus less classes needed. It's like 5 street touring classes vs 8 or so street/stock classes.

It's why MemeStreet popped up here and has been spreading. People wanted to run, but didn't want to be last in classes on crap tires. We have like 10+ people running 400+ TW tires, or just really crap, old tires. They have fun and run sometimes clapped out cars, but sometimes newer/good cars with just terrible tires. It's a big "eff you" to the SCCA and their classing.

End rant. I just really hate the whole classing thing. Which is why I made this video earlier this year

[Desertnate]

Originally Posted by cmiovino

It would be almost impossible, but the better comparison would be for each car to have a PAX, classes get thrown out, and we're all competing against each other. Zero way to class every car though.

I like this idea. The huge variety of cars on the road almost pushes you in this direction in street class at least.

Going on a total tangent, that's why I like street touring classes more - modifications level the playing field more in terms of autocross when tire and suspension choices make the most difference. Power becomes less of a divider and the modifications make cars more even (mainly suspension, camber, wider tires/wheels).

I've thought about going to STR, but in our area that class is chock full of highly modified Miata's, most of which are modified to the limits of the class. With my car being my daily, I'm not sure I want to sacrifice enough to be competitive in that class. Besides, it's also full of some pretty good drivers too. I'd get eaten alive like a cow falling into a school of piranha.

It's why MemeStreet popped up here and has been spreading. People wanted to run, but didn't want to be last in classes on crap tires. We have like 10+ people running 400+ TW tires, or just really crap, old tires. They have fun and run sometimes clapped out cars, but sometimes newer/good cars with just terrible tires. It's a big "eff you" to the SCCA and their classing.

Sounds like a riot. Last season we had a couple of high school aged guys who came out and co-drove a clapped out, rusty, 2000's Corolla on skinny tires. They drove it at full send each run and got out of the car laughing each time. People on course were laughing watching their rust bucket claw it's way around course and wondering if it would hold together. We need more of that.

[cmiovino]

Originally Posted by Desertnate

Sounds like a riot. Last season we had a couple of high school aged guys who came out and co-drove a clapped out, rusty, 2000's Corolla on skinny tires. They drove it at full send each run and got out of the car laughing each time. People on course were laughing watching their rust bucket claw it's way around course and wondering if it would hold together. We need more of that.

This is pretty much it.

We have a Crown Vic Police Interceptor we call the "PAX Interceptor" my buddy bought for about $2k. Automatic, reliable as hell. Crap tires and they just hoon around in it. Sometimes it has 3-4 drivers per event and they write their times on the hood in sharpie.

We had a highly modified Bugeye WRX with an EJ207 and all the good stuff... but on Tiger Paws or something for kicks.

Very much reminds me of back in the day with my own WRX I was running all seasons or more regular summer tires. Went for fun and not really times. It was in STX back then, then moved to STH, but wasn't even on coilovers, but just STI springs.

End of the day, we all do this for fun, but it's super easy to get caught up in being overly competitive. You do make a good point on going to street touring and then you find out people are running $5k coilovers, NVH is through the roof with poly bushings or solid camber plates, camber is -4 or more and not really daily driver friendly.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by cmiovino

End of the day, we all do this for fun, but it's super easy to get caught up in being overly competitive. You do make a good point on going to street touring and then you find out people are running $5k coilovers, NVH is through the roof with poly bushings or solid camber plates, camber is -4 or more and not really daily driver friendly.

Here I am running $6k coilovers (I did not spend nearly that much on them) with spherical bushings all around, and -4* of camber to get my ass handed to me nationally by Miatas. The camber doesn't really hurt much for street driving, but boy do I notice the spherical bushings.

[strat61caster]

$1500 second hand Megan’s, drove to work yesterday on my Bridgestone’s that I got 2nd with at Crows two weeks ago. Wheels were $500 from T_Rod, $1700 for the tune and header, $700 for the front swaybar, $2k for the diff, not much slower without the diff and fancy bar and nice header, could cut the build down to ~$3.5k to prove a point, amortize that over the ~6 years I’ve been autoxing this car semi seriously.

Going to switch to yokos tomorrow to finish them off at a local the weekend after, a hundred ish runs iirc.

imho Street class should stay close to showroom stock as an entry point, parity will always be difficult (unless you pax every car individually) and even with cheap shocks and sways and wheel offsets and bump stops each desirable car will progress. If you want to cover warts, move up, the classing is already a decent pyramid, philosophy is reasonable rules as written just need a refresh for clarity and conciseness. Driving still beats the hell out of mods 99% of the time, changing my car could’ve bought me a few tenths of a second a few weeks ago but most of my >1.4s deficit was skill disparity.

Edit; if Heitkotter can win with $2k coils, $300 front bar, a $1k header + tune, and <$2k wheels & tires I can at least trophy and go home happy with not much more investment. You can certainly spend more then $5k on an ST car but it’s not getting you much.

[Desertnate]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

$1500 second hand Megan’s, drove to work yesterday on my Bridgestone’s that I got 2nd with at Crows two weeks ago. Wheels were $500 from T_Rod, $1700 for the tune and header, $700 for the front swaybar, $2k for the diff, not much slower without the diff and fancy bar and nice header, could cut the build down to ~$3.5k to prove a point, amortize that over the ~6 years I’ve been autoxing this car semi seriously.

You're fortunate to live in an area with a healthy second had market for your car. Here in the hinterlands...not so much. They are very thin on the ground and there are even fewer parts floating around on the ground. I searched all winter long for a set of wheels and ended up buying new because there were none on the market in a 4~5 hour radius.

Driving still beats the hell out of mods 99% of the time, changing my car could’ve bought me a few tenths of a second a few weeks ago but most of my >1.4s deficit was skill disparity.

Absolutely! When I did a novice day two years ago, my instructor, who consistently has the fastest raw time in every local event he attends, was roughly 10 seconds faster than me in the car I was driving at the time. For a while we had to guys in street class who always placed in the top five raw times; one in a Mk7 GTI, another in an E90 M3. There was much hotter stuff in the paddock, but they were simply wizards behind the wheel.

At the end of the day, I show up for fun and I try to improve each season. However when looking at how things are run/organized, the classing is often a head scratcher...even for those of us not chasing trophies.

[cmiovino]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Edit; if Heitkotter can win with $2k coils, $300 front bar, a $1k header + tune, and <$2k wheels & tires I can at least trophy and go home happy with not much more investment. You can certainly spend more then $5k on an ST car but it’s not getting you much.

Do you know what coilovers those are for $2k?

I haven't made the jump to STX because I keep thinking I need at least ~$3k RCE Tarmac 2's with camber plates, if not something like MCS and up in the $4-5k range.

I've been thinking about it and something like $1800 RCE SS-1's or something similar with good valving, but less adjustable might be better. I don't want to get totally lost adjusting 2-way dampers, or having 30+ adjustment clicks to play with.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by cmiovino

Do you know what coilovers those are for $2k?

I haven't made the jump to STX because I keep thinking I need at least ~$3k RCE Tarmac 2's with camber plates, if not something like MCS and up in the $4-5k range.

I've been thinking about it and something like $1800 RCE SS-1's or something similar with good valving, but less adjustable might be better. I don't want to get totally lost adjusting 2-way dampers, or having 30+ adjustment clicks to play with.

ProParts Megans, there’s also Shaftworks and Redshift for similar money, they all come with camber plates. Monotube, built by autoxers who understand the sport and the locations you run at, closing in on 40k miles on my Megan’s and they’re still great. You might run into Shenefield at an event where you’re at, ask how he would advise your setup. They’re all single adjustable rebound which is where the handling changes come from, while they’re 20-30 clicks you don’t really feel 1 click so put in 2-4 which effectively narrows you down to a ~10 adjustment damper. Once you get compression set right for the surface odds are you don’t change it.

I don’t like the KW stuff, twin tubes, useless support (KW NA that is, RCE is clearly better) but they can take you to the front. MCS cars ride great but a lot of people local to me are switching to shaftworks, their support is great and local to us.

[cmiovino]

I was today years old when I realized SSC PAX is 0.807 and DS is 0.808. AKA, with Konis, Ebach springs, camber bolts up front, ~2.5 degrees up front, adjustable lower control arms AND 8" wide wheels, you need to go actually slower to get the same PAX score.

Again, all on a 225/45/17 RT660, but that's what I was on last year. Fucking christ the 1st gen is boned in DS.

Going to STX the PAX is only 0.817, meaning you need to go exactly 1.1% quicker to maintain the same PAX position. This equates to exactly 0.5 sec faster on a 45 second course or 0.33 seconds quicker on a 30 second course.

Given I'm on a 225 on stock wheels, moving to a 245 on a 9" wheel, plus coilovers offering ~4 degrees of camber up front and 2.5 in the rear with LCAs... I think ANYONE could go half a second quicker just from that. Let alone adding a header and tune to top it all off eventually.

(This is just me convincing myself to go to STX.)

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by cmiovino

I was today years old when I realized SSC PAX is 0.807 and DS is 0.808. AKA, with Konis, Ebach springs, camber bolts up front, ~2.5 degrees up front, adjustable lower control arms AND 8" wide wheels, you need to go actually slower to get the same PAX score.

Again, all on a 225/45/17 RT660, but that's what I was on last year. Fucking christ the 1st gen is boned in DS.

Going to STX the PAX is only 0.817, meaning you need to go exactly 1.1% quicker to maintain the same PAX position. This equates to exactly 0.5 sec faster on a 45 second course or 0.33 seconds quicker on a 30 second course.

Given I'm on a 225 on stock wheels, moving to a 245 on a 9" wheel, plus coilovers offering ~4 degrees of camber up front and 2.5 in the rear with LCAs... I think ANYONE could go half a second quicker just from that. Let alone adding a header and tune to top it all off eventually.

(This is just me convincing myself to go to STX.)

I agree, you should go STX. I was very surprised how much more fun the car became after I put the bits on it. The stock stuff is really good for a relatively comfortable fun street car, but with proper suspension and an alignment, my car became a weapon