Tall People Solutions?

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

The seat will still collapse, the DOT approved belt will still stretch, the airbags will still go off, and the HANS (Hybrid Sport) will keep my head from flopping in subsequent hits.

Armchair safety not-expert here...
Assuming a tall driver with not much headroom, in case of a rollover with the roof actually physically moving into the interior, will the DOT approved belt "still stretch" early enough to prevent large forces being applied to their neck? Or will the belt stretch only after the neck is already under stress?

My understanding was that harness + fixed back seat but no roll bar is worse than the 3-pt belt + reclining seat in this situation, as the harness+fixed back "fix" the shoulders in a single place, so there's a risk of a lot larger force being applied to the neck.

[Midnightsky]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Midnight - I appreciate your concern, truly. It's a sympathetic point.

And I'd first like to say I'm not advocating anyone do anything that isn't legal or what is within their risk profile. Discussions like these can inform what that profile becomes.

I am, personally, 100% comfortable with the risk of a rollover accident at the kart track or autocross when wearing the Schroth harness and I would be comfortable with it at a larger track, too. The seat will still collapse, the DOT approved belt will still stretch, the airbags will still go off, and the HANS (Hybrid Sport) will keep my head from flopping in subsequent hits. I'll be running with Speed Ventures at Chuckwalla and Auto Club this year and with HOD at Laguna Seca. I don't know if they will permit the use of the harness - I did not get a negative response from organizer representatives when I mentioned I would be installing the harness. But as I have not gone out yet, I cannot say for certain they will permit it. Being the harness is a quick detach, it would be no issue to run without.

On my soap box here; I do think running a roll bar in a street driven vehicle is significantly more dangerous than using the Schroth Rallye 3 ASM as the alternative. The chances of a side/rear end impact are much higher than rolling and with a bar intruding on my unprotected head/flesh the (perceived?) danger is too much for me.

And I welcome any discussion on the matter. I included the harness in this thread as I found it to be a worthwhile piece of the ergo puzzle. Keeping my shoulders against the seat back made a noticeable difference in driving comfort and confidence.

I absolutely agree on the roll bar in street car dangers. Not ideal at all even if padded. I myself went the compromised route and just added a CG-Lock. It helps, not as much as a harness, but it still helps. I almost went down the schroth route myself but was talked out of it. Keep us posted on how it goes, all feedback is appreciated.

[Re_Invention]

Cheers guys for a positive conversation. I'll put this out here for some context to others reading - I don't believe this is a trivial matter; changing the safety system from factory to modified has the potential to be dangerous and hazardous to your well being in the event of a crash. If you are not confident in what you're doing and are going off an internet strangers comments - simply don't do it. Consult with a professional. I am by no means advocating for any other changes I have done here for anyone else to try.

According to University of Virginia - roll overs account for 2% of all vehicle related crashes but are responsible for 33% of all vehicle crash related fatalities. They don't clarify if the occupants wore seat belts or not; the point is these are big fatality numbers.

https://news.virginia.edu/content/de...look-rollovers

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Armchair safety not-expert here...
Assuming a tall driver with not much headroom, in case of a rollover with the roof actually physically moving into the interior, will the DOT approved belt "still stretch" early enough to prevent large forces being applied to their neck? Or will the belt stretch only after the neck is already under stress?

My understanding was that harness + fixed back seat but no roll bar is worse than the 3-pt belt + reclining seat in this situation, as the harness+fixed back "fix" the shoulders in a single place, so there's a risk of a lot larger force being applied to the neck.

Tim - same here, and I do not have an answer to that. I'm trying to visualize the issue but am having trouble seeing the fail fatal point of the prescribed scenario - well, I see bad outcomes however I imagine it! While I do have faith in the Subaru pillars holding up to a moderate speed roll over, what I'm getting from your description is if the roof were to come into the interior space and I'm strapped into the factory seat with the Schroth harness on - you're asking if the belt will stretch enough so my neck (in a relatively fixed position due to HANS) would bear the force of the roof first or of my body weight would stretch the belt, presumably 'in time,' before the impact of the roof coming into my headspace. With the ASM piece, I'm believing the 'fixed' component is dynamic and would allow for some movement. Whether it will be enough or not, I do not know.

If I think about either scenario; wearing the factory 3 point belt with Hybrid Sport HANS and wearing the Schroth with Hybrid Sport HANS on, and I roll, land on the roof and the roof comes into the interior space - I don't see a significant difference in my survival rate. I could see there being more 'play' in the locked up factory 3 point belt where I might have more doll rag movement but with my helmet/HANS on I don't think I'd get that much benefit. And then there's the question (assumption?) if that movement is more desirable vs the more fixed position; I do not know. From the UVA study: "One of the most important results we've seen is that the human spine extends, straightens and aligns itself with the acceleration vector in a way we have never seen in other types of crashes... This puts the human head close to the roof, and closer to injury, at the time the roof gets impacted by the ground when the vehicle rolls over." I'm unclear how to read into that.

So I rationalize it this way; I'd rather have the Hybrid Sport for virtually other crash scenarios (even with airbags, also that's a big assumption, too!) and I believe those scenarios are substantially more likely than a rollover. I think, in a completely unqualified manner, it is questionable if the 3point + HANS is going to have a significant survival rate increase vs ASM + HANS in the event of a rollover. I much prefer the comfort of the ASM over 3point. So I go with ASM and make my peace. But it's discussions like these that make me reconsider, always.

Originally Posted by Midnightsky

I absolutely agree on the roll bar in street car dangers. Not ideal at all even if padded. I myself went the compromised route and just added a CG-Lock. It helps, not as much as a harness, but it still helps. I almost went down the schroth route myself but was talked out of it. Keep us posted on how it goes, all feedback is appreciated.

I tried the CG as well but found my shoulders lifting too much off the seat back and went the Schroth route. Yes absolutely I'll keep everyone updated - I've got a few changes coming up with the car (pedal and headliner) and will post back on ergos for big and tall. And certainly will warn others if this safety modification ever bites me in the ass.

Quick edit here. Found this video clip on the youtube:

Some quick takes from Joe Marko (involved in NASCAR safety engineering group) and merchant of Schroth wares as owner of HMS Motorsports. According to him, 99% of roll over accidents injury is due to the head rotating outwards and making contact with the pavement or armco (not from the roof). Less than 0.5% of rollovers occur with a risk of roof caving in.

[timurrrr]

My mental modeling is that a factor 3pt belt will try its best to hold the driver's butt in the seat while allowing their upper back / neck move to the side/front if needed to avoid the deformed ceiling; and a reclining seat back might even allow some movement towards the back of the car if it collapses.
While a 4+ point harness will lock the driver's upper back to the fixed back of the seat, and the fixed back won't move unless there's a massive force coming through their head/neck to move it.

[Re_Invention]

Brief update here.

I installed the Cusco throttle pedal. It's a cheap, reversible part and it made a small but positive difference for heel-toe movement. There's no down sides and I certainly recommend it.

I have not yet cut the headliner. I was doing some due diligence before taking the knife to the headliner and saw some videos on youtube of 2g twin's owners getting custom starlight headliners installed and I noticed the bracing structure and lines appear different on our second generation cars compared to the first. I was hoping to be lazy and make the cuts from inside the car, without having to remove the headliner. But now I'm uncertain of where the potential power lines are and will need to set some time aside for a headliner removal and proper cutting.

As far as the seat bottom goes - I'm strongly reconsidering the pan basket removal. As I said in a prior post, removing the bottom support basket/bracket it has let the butt drop lower but now created new pinch points on my hips from the side leg bolsters. It's annoying enough to warrant reverting back to stock.

I've purchased a seat belt buckle end to plug into the factory 3 point belt receiver when using the harness. It's to A) get rid of the seatbelt warning chime while on track and B) ensure the airbags deploy at full force in the event of an accident.

I do want to clarify a potential safety issue on a previous post of mine: I stated I will be using the Schroth Rallye 3 ASM + Simpson Hybrid Sport HANS. I reached out and spoke with a representative from HMS motorsport regarding the combination of the Schroth Rallye 3 ASM + Simpson Hybrid Sport HANS device. According to the rep; they are not compatible together. That was a false assumption on my part. So I repeat; according to a product specialist at HMS Motorsport; the Schroth Rallye 3 ASM and Simpson Hybrid Sport HANS device should not be used together.

I will quote the reasoning directly;

"The belts do not work with devices, regardless if it attaches to the body or not, because the belt would be pushed off the device as all devices are much narrower than the human shoulders. When you go forward, the belts get slightly wider, thus coming up on the little winglet on that device and then popping over it. I know they sell that device saying it works with a factory 3 point, but it does very little to actually protect you as the motion with a 3 point belt is different than how that device is designed to work. ALL head and neck restraints are only designed to be used when both shoulders are stopping at the same time with both shoulders staying on the same plain, not one rotating forward some compared to the other."

Reading between the lines I felt like there some, uh, let's say suspicion of the Simpson Hybrid Sport product in general by this individual. While I understand the belt size being incompatible with the channel on the device, I do not understand why the tension on the tethers connected to the helmet being materially different if the anchor on the body is independent from the harness itself. I can see the inside shoulder articulating some but the force distribution on the body should still be similar. Meaning; if the product is designed for a factory 3-point where the shoulder articulates in the event of an impact, why would the Schroth harness, which has the same or similar movement allowance, be materially different?

I responded to their message with a direct question: do they believe the Hybrid Sport is an inferior product and should not be used at all? I did not receive a response - probably a better question over the phone. I'm going to continue to explore the topic with other specialists in the field.

But yeah, for transparency sake and to contribute to our collective knowledge base here I wanted to follow up with this information.

Frankly I'm bummed the Hybrid Sport and Rallye 3 are incompatible per the rep. I'm undecided which product is going to get priority and usage from hereon out. I do believe the HANS is a vital part to motorsport safety and I see a higher likelihood of having some sort of front/side impact incident where a HANS would be good to have on. Seeing professional drivers and instructors all around praise the product for what it is, and the common sense of having that extra security to reduce the force to the neck movement, makes it a seemingly obvious choice.

On the other hand, the immediate benefit of the Rallye 3 is huge while on track. The extra comfort and security in the seat has made a big, tangible difference in quality of life and well, better lap times.

Tim - I believe I understand your line of thinking. I do see the biggest thread as a fixed back seat in the event of a roll over.

I'm still exploring helmets - I don't think there's going to be a big discrepancy between brands or models when it comes to overall width/height given what I've been told about the SNELL certification requirements. Considering an open face this time around, not as safe as a full face but loads more comfortable and convenient. Going to pull the trigger on the Pyrotect Pro-Sport Open Face SA2020 for $199.99 and remove the sunvisor piece.

In other news, I've ordered a load of additional parts:

Schroth 2" Harness Pads
Subaru STI Lateral Link Set (rear lower control arms + toe links)
Subaru STI Sport Springs
Cusco Steering Rack Bushings (+ tool)
Cusco Axle Boot Heat Shield
Pedder Offset Strut Mounts
Porsche GT3 Front Brake Ducts
Subaru JDM clear side markers

And still waiting on the Lathewerks 5" angled shift extension piece to come in.

Cheers All,
Colin

[LanceLane174]

Sadly I am selling my BRZ for profit and I have a 22 WRX GT on order.

Too hard for my old ass to get in and out. Wife hates it for that and she can't drive stick. I had my fun for 4 months and made 3000. I got 1000 off msrp on the WRX, even though no one is going below MSRP. I played dealers against each other. I guess this was my solution for taller drivers. I'm 6 foot 2 and 53.

[Flarpswitch]

Originally Posted by LanceLane174

Sadly I am selling my BRZ for profit and I have a 22 WRX GT on order.

Too hard for my old ass to get in and out. Wife hates it for that and she can't drive stick. I had my fun for 4 months and made 3000. I got 1000 off msrp on the WRX, even though no one is going below MSRP. I played dealers against each other. I guess this was my solution for taller drivers. I'm 6 foot 2 and 53.

Sometimes it was never meant to be. A brief love/hate relationship with a Lotus Elan in the early ‘70s was the impetus to buy a better version: the Mazda MX5. It was brand new and nobody had one. My head bumped the frame of the top and I knew five miles down the road I would have a migraine. I could just drive with the top down all the time? The cockpit was a bit tight though, so I had to pass. Over the years to the most recent iteration of the Miata, I still can’t make it work. In 2013 at a car show, I tried the BRZ on for size. It fit me like a glove and I knew I had to get one. I’m 6’ tall, so I have the seat all the way to the floor or one notch up at most. With an Ascent Dogmobile and a BRZ in the garage, I have all my bases covered. If I was limited to having one car or if I was 40 or 50 years younger, I would have the WRX with no regrets.

[series.trackday]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

...

I do want to clarify a potential safety issue on a previous post of mine: I stated I will be using the Schroth Rallye 3 ASM + Simpson Hybrid Sport HANS. I reached out and spoke with a representative from HMS motorsport regarding the combination of the Schroth Rallye 3 ASM + Simpson Hybrid Sport HANS device. According to the rep; they are not compatible together. That was a false assumption on my part. So I repeat; according to a product specialist at HMS Motorsport; the Schroth Rallye 3 ASM and Simpson Hybrid Sport HANS device should not be used together.

I will quote the reasoning directly;

"The belts do not work with devices, regardless if it attaches to the body or not, because the belt would be pushed off the device as all devices are much narrower than the human shoulders. When you go forward, the belts get slightly wider, thus coming up on the little winglet on that device and then popping over it. I know they sell that device saying it works with a factory 3 point, but it does very little to actually protect you as the motion with a 3 point belt is different than how that device is designed to work. ALL head and neck restraints are only designed to be used when both shoulders are stopping at the same time with both shoulders staying on the same plain, not one rotating forward some compared to the other."...

Note which of the two products you're talking about are SFI or FIA certified. I think you'll find the Schroth harness is NOT a race harness and doesn't meet the design requirements for using a HANS.

Which is not to say Schroth harnesses are poor in design or quality. I've used Schroth 6-points system in my race car. The ASM just isn't fit for purpose; Schroth includes it under their "tuning" section. Tuning, AKA, some safety benefit but mainly for show.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

"ALL head and neck restraints are only designed to be used when both shoulders are stopping at the same time with both shoulders staying on the same plain, not one rotating forward some compared to the other."

Thanks for the thorough post, Colin. Like you, I am suspicious of what the HMS rep had to say. It is in direct conflict with this:

SIMPSON RACING HYBRID S

[DocWalt]

The Hybrid S is the only HNR device that is rated to work with a 3 point belt.

[Sasquachulator]

Cut the roof off and make a convertible.

Just like what they had to do to the Toyota 2000GT in "You only live Twice"
to get Sean Connery to fit.

[Flarpswitch]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Cut the roof off and make a convertible.

Just like what they had to do to the Toyota 2000GT in "You only live Twice"
to get Sean Connery to fit.

There is a bit of BRZ folklore that I have not verified, but it goes along the lines of Toyota wanting to create a drop-top version. Still stinging from being talked into building the car in the first place, they said as long as it is being built in our factory, no. The roof is integral to the rigidity of the car and the development costs would be too much. If anyone is serious about fitting in the BRZ/86, spend some bucks and have a “Gurney Bubble” installed. Race car driver Dan Gurney had trouble fitting in the Ford GT40 so the car was modified. Gurney was 6’4”.

[BRZZZZZZZZZZ]

My update was just deciding I’m not interested in a new one.

I also removed most of the interior of my car for this season, a bonus extra little bit of headroom there in my 13.

[Midnightsky]

Originally Posted by Flarpswitch

There is a bit of BRZ folklore that I have not verified, but it goes along the lines of Toyota wanting to create a drop-top version. Still stinging from being talked into building the car in the first place, they said as long as it is being built in our factory, no. The roof is integral to the rigidity of the car and the development costs would be too much. If anyone is serious about fitting in the BRZ/86, spend some bucks and have a “Gurney Bubble” installed. Race car driver Dan Gurney had trouble fitting in the Ford GT40 so the car was modified. Gurney was 6’4”.

That's some great history thank you for sharing