Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by peaches

Do some research though, I had AAA Premium and dropped them after they refused to tow my car. Wrecked it at Mid Ohio, they refused service (after the truck got there) because the car had been on track. Had to pay someone to tow the car back to Cleveland.


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That's completely up to the service provider.

I've seen cars get towed from Laguna Seca, and the tow providers will flat out refuse to tow the car unless the car's owner pays them cash. If they don't then the tow provider tells AAA "car is heavily modified, blah blah blah" to try to black flag your account.

[peaches]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

That's completely up to the service provider.

I've seen cars get towed from Laguna Seca, and the tow providers will flat out refuse to tow the car unless the car's owner pays them cash. If they don't then the tow provider tells AAA "car is heavily modified, blah blah blah" to try to black flag your account.

That makes no sense to me. In my case, the only reason I was paying AAA was so they could take me home if something happened on track. When it did, they flat out refused. He didn't want more money or cash, he just said no. My friends and I suspect he just didn't want to make the drive from Lexington to Cleveland (and back).

Why would you wait until you get to the track to say no to my face? I was very clear when I called them about where I was, what happened and what I needed. I specifically requested a flat bed with enough room for my utility trailer. He could have saved himself some gas and just said no when he got the call. AAA customer service was completely useless, it was as if I was calling the service provider's customer service instead of AAA.

Why would I pay AAA just so I can be at the driver's\service provider's mercy? What is to stop them from refusing service when I break down and I'm not at the track? If the driver is going to demand cash on the spot then I might as well just call a regular tow company, all AAA would do is call them for me and maybe get me a discount.

A friend of mine had a similar issue: electrical problems and the car wouldn't start. He called AAA and they sent a tow to the track (Autobahn), they took his car but not his utility trailer. It is AAA's policy to not tow trailers, no matter how small they are or what kind. My friend had to call a tow company so they could pick up the trailer, cost him as much as he would have paid having the car and the trailer towed. He didn't know AAA had such a policy, again their customer service was not helpful or nice about it. He dropped AAA and got a tow vehicle.

Since that happened, I always make sure there's a friend with a trailer running the same event or I have cash aside if I need a tow. I'm sure other people have had better experiences with AAA, but I refuse to give them my business.

Unfortunately until I get my own tow vehicle, this means I'm driving 7/10 or 8/10 instead of all out. I know I'm not growing as a driver as much as I'd like but I know the car is safe. For now I'm just having fun and learning at a slower rate.

[jjaisli]

From my experience, for a national organization, AAA's level of service, competence and professionalism varies greatly from region to region. I know they depend on independent contractors. But I've seen AAA emergency service show up in a brand new 'orange' SUV with official looking decals on the side in Southern California where the service was quick, friendly and professional. Like something you'd expect from the ADAC in Germany. And I've seen a guy in a clapped out, rusty old van, trailing blue smoke, with a guy driving it who looked like he had been living in the vehicle for a month, in New York State, who spent most of his time trying to extort money for additional service.

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

Most people can't afford them. For the price of one, you could buy a decent E36 race car with enough money left over a seasons worth of track time and a half dozen days with a qualified driving coach. Depending on their rates.




I don't disagree with any of this. Especially in the beginning. As I stated in my post, there are a lot of advantages to sims. There's much to be said for showing up at a track you've never been to before and already knowing the line. But as your experience progresses and the more laps you do on a particular track, the smaller the returns you'll gain from a simulator. At least let's say, a commercial level product that's really designed more for entertainment.

I'll give you a specific example. The Downhill at Lime Rock.




The key to Turn 7 is a slightly late apex and then clipping that apex with your right tires, just kissing the curb and then letting the car just naturally track out. Hit it just right and there's a significant amount of compression and camber through that slot that you can't easily see from inside the car. Even walking the track you have to look carefully, just because of the angle of the hill and corner. You kind of have to get down on your knees and look at it from the right angle to see it. But hit it just right, very precisely, and that compression allows you to take that corner quicker and with more grip & composure than you otherwise could. When you drive the track, this becomes readily apparent (when you get it right). If you hit that mark, repeatedly, you'll naturally start to pick up speed, getting into the throttle earlier and harder. But it demands precision. Get it wrong, even just a foot off at the same speed and you'll likely have a very white knuckle moment as you get spit out onto the grass at track out on the main straight. A lot of people who do end up into the wall on the opposite side.

Even what I consider to be the best commercial simulator out there, iRacing, doesn't quite get this compression and the affects it has on grip and composure, quite right. To be fair, the relationship between grip and track camber and compression, along with suspension movement and slip angle, is highly complex. And it results in a LOT of 0 & 1 floating back and forth in real time.

This is just one example, out of dozens that I could think of, and it's why I say that commercial grade simulators are a great and important tool to learning a track. But if you're really using it to narrow down your lines and whittle away 10ths, you better be using something that's as accurate as possible. Something like Project Cars is a very effective took for learning the layout. More than that, not from where I'm sitting. It does an even worse job with the effects of loading and unloading and at tracks like WGI where half the corners on the track are all about compression and camber, so you can see where it's leading from my perspective.

All that said, yes, if I'm heading to a track, I always try and spend a little time in my rig first, just to freshen up. And I think it helps.

Excellent write-up and my feelings exactly. To further illustrate the point, if anyone has been to Pole Position in Farmingdale, they have one of those crazy g-force simulators with WGI running. Watching a few people drive it, the little helper arrow trail that guides you around the track and says ideally where you should put the car is absolutely wrong in some locations. Keep off ALL the rumbles in the bus stop?!?! They also don't get the camber fall-off at 9 and the extra grip/rut at the apex curbing of 10 (very much like the downhill at LRP).
So yes, to familiarize yourself with a new track or brush off some cobwebs, they are a great tool. To really get the finer nuances, you have to actually drive.

You can learn sex from watching porn, but you can't perfect it without actually being there...

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by cjd

I've read that it can actually improve your response times because you can often see something about to happen before you feel it in the car... This does not surprise me in the least.

Ideally, that should almost always be the case. You always want to be ahead of the car. By the time you're feeling it through your other senses, you've slowed down to the pace of the car.

That also applies to other external factors that you will only have visual (possibly audible) feedback on, not just your own car. ie, if you're going into a corner with a car ahead of you. Is he going in too hot, getting on the throttle too early and about to spin? What will his line be and will you be able to overtake cleanly?

Good example, following a car in the wet on NHMS lefthander before pit entry. Watched him take a line too tight for the conditions and heard his engine start to tach up too early with his wheels still on the slick portion of the corner. Anticipated the spin and avoided when he did.

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by peaches

Do some research though, I had AAA Premium and dropped them after they refused to tow my car. Wrecked it at Mid Ohio, they refused service (after the truck got there) because the car had been on track. Had to pay someone to tow the car back to Cleveland.


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It is probably the independent contractors they work with. I picked up the AAA Premier specifically because the 200mi tow gets me home from Poconos, LRP, Thompson, NJMP, and NY Safety Track should something go wrong.

Unfortunately, I had to prove the theory when the Vette transmission blew up at Thompson. 198 miles plus a ferry and AAA covered everything. I told them up front where it was, what happened, and that it would need to be a flat bed that could take a low profile car. No problems at all and I tipped the driver well. Excellent service!

The funny part is, if you read the fine print, they have trip protection coverage: "If your trip is delayed due to an accident, mechanical breakdown, car theft, unexpected illness or injury, or severe weather, you can be reimbursed up to $1,500 for covered out-of-pocket expenses, including meals and accommodations, and/or substitute transportation to continue your trip. " Thought about using this to rent one of the school Lambos or Ferraris to 'complete my trip'... was told no. It was worth a shot.

[Uplink]

Originally Posted by Pat

For what it's worth many regular auto insurance policies include free towing. I've used mine a few times and it works great. No charge and no increase in premiums. Check your existing policy before spending extra money on something you may already have.

It's all in the verbiage. Most companies will only reimburse you up to 50 miles or to the nearest shop. The Premier that CSG Mike is talking about includes 1 200mi tow per year per person with a bunch of other perks along with the usual hotel and rental car discounts. The price difference is negligible but you do need to be a AAA standard member for a year before you can upgrade to Premier.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Uplink

the little helper arrow trail that guides you around the track and says ideally where you should put the car is absolutely wrong in some locations. Keep off ALL the rumbles in the bus stop?!?!

I've only done arcade-y sims, but I feel like the 'suggested lines' are mediocre or straight up bad on purpose to reward someone for figuring out where it's wrong. Maybe it's just the programmed line for the games AI so the computers aren't invincible, idk.

Pretty much only useful for not totally blowing the braking zone.

Edit: I've called AAA twice, both times for running out of gas, one driver dumped in like 2.5 gallons for free, happy to help and on his way. Second time the guy charged me $6 for 1 gallon, not a drop more and was a **** about it, totally agree the service varies based on region and if the tow guy found piss in his cheerios that morning.

[Icecreamtruk]

On the AAA topic, on the canadian page for it, it clearly says on the FAQ that they will not cover any service for a vehicule that was at a track or any other kind of competition event. So a complete waste of time if you live up here and try to get it for track reasons.

[kevman_101]

Originally Posted by Uplink

Excellent write-up and my feelings exactly. To further illustrate the point, if anyone has been to Pole Position in Farmingdale, they have one of those crazy g-force simulators with WGI running. Watching a few people drive it, the little helper arrow trail that guides you around the track and says ideally where you should put the car is absolutely wrong in some locations. Keep off ALL the rumbles in the bus stop?!?! They also don't get the camber fall-off at 9 and the extra grip/rut at the apex curbing of 10 (very much like the downhill at LRP).
So yes, to familiarize yourself with a new track or brush off some cobwebs, they are a great tool. To really get the finer nuances, you have to actually drive.

You can learn sex from watching porn, but you can't perfect it without actually being there...

Don`t know which simulator they are using, my guess is rFactor with a user made version of WGI. I might be a fanboy, but for any American driver, the best sim to learn tracks would be iRacing in my opinion, as they have most of the major American tracks, and they are ALL laser scanned to mm precision.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by kevman_101

Don`t know which simulator they are using, my guess is rFactor with a user made version of WGI. I might be a fanboy, but for any American driver, the best sim to learn tracks would be iRacing in my opinion, as they have most of the major American tracks, and they are ALL laser scanned to mm precision.

I think iRacing is indeed amazing, but I cannot justify the costs of it. I would need to sacrifice actual track days on my car to afford it, and that aint happening.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

I think iRacing is indeed amazing, but I cannot justify the costs of it. I would need to sacrifice actual track days on my car to afford it, and that aint happening.

for $100 a year? It's on black friday sale right now too, so it's even cheaper... sure, if you want to add tracks and cars you have to buy them, but for me to do a two day track weekend the whole weekend comes out around $1k... Huge difference in cost.

[Icecreamtruk]

@DocWalt A trackday for me usually means around $300-$400. You cant race in iracing without tracks and cars so of course they have to be included in the price. For the amount I will need to have a decent experience, I would have done at least 1 track day, possibly more.

Also, since I started racing (well, lapping and time attack, no wheel to wheel), I actually enjoy less virtual racing. To the point that during the season (canada here, so all track days are condesed over 5-6 months of time), I dont actually do any sim racing at all. Only during winter do I feel the itch, and even then, I've taken a liking to karting.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

@DocWalt A trackday for me usually means around $300-$400. You cant race in iracing without tracks and cars so of course they have to be included in the price. For the amount I will need to have a decent experience, I would have done at least 1 track day, possibly more.

Also, since I started racing (well, lapping and time attack, no wheel to wheel), I actually enjoy less virtual racing. To the point that during the season (canada here, so all track days are condesed over 5-6 months of time), I dont actually do any sim racing at all. Only during winter do I feel the itch, and even then, I've taken a liking to karting.

How are your track days so cheap? After hotel/fuel/consumables/etc I was close to $500 a day. If I was doing tracks within an hour of my house and didn't need a hotel the costs would go down about ~$90 a day, but definitely not lower than that.

I completely understand, I pretty much don't race in iRacing over the summer either. Autocross and track days eat up my desire for that stuff.

The big thing with iRacing is the racing, if you're getting that sort of competitive buzz at an HPDE you're doing something wrong. Autocross gets the buzz going a bit, but I can't wait to do some actual W2W racing and iRacing is a nice "fix" for that during the off season.

Karting is definitely an option, but at least where I am it's crap-tastic electric karts within ~15 minutes or drive an hour or more to pay $60-100 for ~30 minutes of track time (with at least half of it wasted behind slow people that shouldn't be there) when I could have had ~4 hours of track time in iRacing with some of the fastest drivers in the world at my virtual doorstep. Not much value for money in my local karting, IMO. I know there are kart leagues and what not... but I travel for work a lot and can't commit to anything like that I really wish I could, haha