BRZ vs S2000 vs Cayman S (my take)

[brzaapi]

I appreciate everyone's feedback. And i agree. This is my 3rd BRZ and I have installed headers on the previous two(OFH and Tomei). I understand the difference the header makes on these cars.

But I just had to get rid of my S2000( and Boxster) due to a baby. CSG MIke knows the whole story, and my questions(lately) to him have been how to get some of my favorite characteristics of the S2000 into the BRZ. I love the BRZ, but it understeers and i miss the F22C. I am trying to give the BRZ a more reving nature and more oversteer, so that it is sharper like the S2000 (yes I know some will disagree about the whole S2000/FT86 thing).

So i am not questioning the power that the ACE header will add(and I am sure it will). Its the nature of the power delivery and response and some other things that you feel, but are hard to get across in words on a forum.

But thank you all for the responses. And I am in agreement about the header.

My question to Mike is more of a "beyond the dynos type of question". Dynos are good, but they dont answer many subjective questions.



What can i say. Mike got me drinking the S2000 Kool-Aid.


BTW (@CSG MIke) - 1521s are working great. No Squeal.

[Dembo]

I've come from 9 years of an F20C S2000 and to be honest the GT86 always feels a little faster. I know it isn't really, but it's a perception thing of having a little more torque lower down.

Gt86 obviously wins on comfort, practicality, fuel consumption (and oil consumption) and road noise. S2000 obviously wins on its sunroof. IMO the GT86 wins on looks too; I never really thought the S2000 was a good looking car, though that's totally subjective.

Handling is a bit more difficult as I'd upgraded my S2000 suspension somewhat and so far all I've done to the GT86 is KW coilovers but haven't had the alignment done, so can't comment too much. The 86 has a much stiffer chassis; the S2000 would flex when pushed hard even with bracing, and there's also the CoG. But the S2000 wins on weight distribution, and because there's no rear seats you're sitting close to the rear wheels and that's just more fun. Double wishbones at the front and full adjustability as stock is another big win for the S2000. But Honda spoiled it with the designed in RWS effect; I'd replaced the rear toe arms to mostly get rid of it.

The things that disappoint me the most with this car are the gear change, which is nowhere near as good, and the throttle response. My early S2000 had a cable to control the throttle, yes that's right a cable, and that's so much better than waiting for the ECU to have a good think before it gives you any power.

I do miss mine. It had got pretty old and knackered and I decided it was time to get something newer. The GT86 isn't far off, perhaps the only thing that is, but I always tell people that the S2000 is/was the better car.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by Dembo

I've come from 9 years of an F20C S2000 and to be honest the GT86 always feels a little faster. I know it isn't really, but it's a perception thing of having a little more torque lower down.

Gt86 obviously wins on comfort, practicality, fuel consumption (and oil consumption) and road noise. S2000 obviously wins on its sunroof. IMO the GT86 wins on looks too; I never really thought the S2000 was a good looking car, though that's totally subjective.

Handling is a bit more difficult as I'd upgraded my S2000 suspension somewhat and so far all I've done to the GT86 is KW coilovers but haven't had the alignment done, so can't comment too much. The 86 has a much stiffer chassis; the S2000 would flex when pushed hard even with bracing, and there's also the CoG. But the S2000 wins on weight distribution, and because there's no rear seats you're sitting close to the rear wheels and that's just more fun. Double wishbones at the front and full adjustability as stock is another big win for the S2000. But Honda spoiled it with the designed in RWS effect; I'd replaced the rear toe arms to mostly get rid of it.

The things that disappoint me the most with this car are the gear change, which is nowhere near as good, and the throttle response. My early S2000 had a cable to control the throttle, yes that's right a cable, and that's so much better than waiting for the ECU to have a good think before it gives you any power.

I do miss mine. It had got pretty old and knackered and I decided it was time to get something newer. The GT86 isn't far off, perhaps the only thing that is, but I always tell people that the S2000 is/was the better car.

My thoughts exactly, even down to the reason that I got out of the s2000. I feel like the GT86 is a "mature"/practical s2000. I love my GT86 but do miss my AP1.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Dembo

I've come from 9 years of an F20C S2000 and to be honest the GT86 always feels a little faster. I know it isn't really, but it's a perception thing of having a little more torque lower down.

Gt86 obviously wins on comfort, practicality, fuel consumption (and oil consumption) and road noise. S2000 obviously wins on its sunroof. IMO the GT86 wins on looks too; I never really thought the S2000 was a good looking car, though that's totally subjective.

Handling is a bit more difficult as I'd upgraded my S2000 suspension somewhat and so far all I've done to the GT86 is KW coilovers but haven't had the alignment done, so can't comment too much. The 86 has a much stiffer chassis; the S2000 would flex when pushed hard even with bracing, and there's also the CoG. But the S2000 wins on weight distribution, and because there's no rear seats you're sitting close to the rear wheels and that's just more fun. Double wishbones at the front and full adjustability as stock is another big win for the S2000. But Honda spoiled it with the designed in RWS effect; I'd replaced the rear toe arms to mostly get rid of it.

The things that disappoint me the most with this car are the gear change, which is nowhere near as good, and the throttle response. My early S2000 had a cable to control the throttle, yes that's right a cable, and that's so much better than waiting for the ECU to have a good think before it gives you any power.

I do miss mine. It had got pretty old and knackered and I decided it was time to get something newer. The GT86 isn't far off, perhaps the only thing that is, but I always tell people that the S2000 is/was the better car.

It's funny because S2000 owners almost universally cry about bumpsteer, but GT3/RS owners love their rear steering.

Meanwhile, everyone with a FRS/BRZ loves it.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

I love the BRZ, but it understeers and i miss the F22C. I am trying to give the BRZ a more reving nature and more oversteer, so that it is sharper like the S2000 (yes I know some will disagree about the whole S2000/FT86 thing).

This - this is what made me buy the S2000 over the BRZ. I test drove the BRZ and the S2000 which I currently own within 1 hour of each other and it was the insanity once VTEC kicked in that made me squee in love with the F22C. The BRZ would rev pretty high too but had no OMGWTFBBQ moments. For me, this meant that on a normal drive, I wouldn't be re-falling in love all over again.

With the S2k, I find every opportunity to hit VTEC. Ironically, when I tune that out, it will become a BRZ in nature lol...

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Dembo

the GT86 always feels a little faster.

Maybe, it's because I have an AP2 (I highly doubt it), but the FR-S/BRZ didn't even feel close to as fast, let alone faster.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Maybe, it's because I have an AP2 (I highly doubt it), but the FR-S/BRZ didn't even feel close to as fast, let alone faster.

06+ AP2 on flashpro feels pretty strong.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Maybe, it's because I have an AP2 (I highly doubt it), but the FR-S/BRZ didn't even feel close to as fast, let alone faster.

I own an AP2 as well. The BRZ/FRS is noticeably stronger pre-torque dip. Anything after about 3000 RPMs, the F2xC is way stronger, partly due to the more aggressive gearing.

The F2xC as a whole, has a much rougher, harsher, "Raw" feeling. The FA20 is very smooth, and doesn't feel as frenetic. In fact, the entire lack of refinement in the S2k adds to its "fast" feel.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's funny because S2000 owners almost universally cry about bumpsteer, but GT3/RS owners love their rear steering.
Meanwhile, everyone with a FRS/BRZ loves it.

AP1 reportedly gives 1/8" toe-in per inch of bump at the rear, which is a LOT! My experience with the car is that it behaves OK if you run minimal rear toe (less than ~0.3 degrees total), but the more rear toe-in you run, the more skittish and weird it gets. Unfortunately, half the S2k world INSIST on running absurd amounts of rear toe in a misguided attempt to "tame the back end". The infamous "UK alignment spec" (which I'm convinced must be based on a mistake in translating spec from degrees to arc-minutes) is for 40 arc-minutes, or 0.67 degrees! This makes the car well nigh undriveable and will wear and heat-cycle out the rears in short order, making it even *less* driveable!

I like oversteery setups with relatively high rear roll stiffness, but toe change with bump is a bad idea. You can feel it slow you down, when the back end starts to come out it takes a bit more time to gather it back up. In that regard my 240Z didnt' and FD doesn't seem to lose as much time. With the AP1 you kinda have to wait for it to come back, whereas with the S30 and FD you can keep "driving" the car forward with the back end out.

They "fixed" this geometry issue with the AP2, but I don't care for the other changes too much. Although I'd be all about an '06+ reflashed to rev to 8500-8600

[EAGLE5]

I really like the cameltoe, both front and rear. I'm not sure how to set it up. Can anybody post pics?

I like zero toe, front and rear, on all my cars. If I felt a car was too tail happy, I could change tire sizes, springs, or rollbars to fix the issue. I also do little freeway driving. I do think the FR-S transitions too quickly to oversteer under power, with zero toe in the rear, but it does understeer without power. The only S2000 I ever drove felt twitchy at reasonable speeds, but it may have had some kind of setup problem.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I own an AP2 as well. The BRZ/FRS is noticeably stronger pre-torque dip. Anything after about 3000 RPMs, the F2xC is way stronger, partly due to the more aggressive gearing.

The F2xC as a whole, has a much rougher, harsher, "Raw" feeling. The FA20 is very smooth, and doesn't feel as frenetic. In fact, the entire lack of refinement in the S2k adds to its "fast" feel.

Sounds pretty similar to my experiences. However, I don't believe much time is spent below 3K RPMs in any S2K. I'm above that even in most daily driving situations.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

I do think the FR-S transitions too quickly to oversteer under power, with zero toe in the rear, but it does understeer without power.

ON the gas => UNDERsteer, OFF the gas => OVERsteer

The only S2000 I ever drove felt twitchy at reasonable speeds, but it may have had some kind of setup problem.

Too much rear toe will do this, and a lot of AP1's have been set up with entirely too much. They add rear toe to make it *less* twitchy, but it makes the car a handful even in a straight line. But then when you *want* it to turn in, *then* it understeers...

[Sideways&Smiling]

FWIW, the AP2 feels pretty planted and stable. I only feel like it's "too twitchy" when I'm driving in the rain and get a little too aggressive with the throttle.

Once it spins in the wet, it definitely is a handful to get under control.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by ZDan

ON the gas => UNDERsteer, OFF the gas => OVERsteer

Just depends. The car can totally oversteer if you're at the limit and you feed power too much too early. It will do the same if you jump off the throttle, but I've never done that particular fuck up.