The new GT4

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^I'd argue otherwise, if you've ever had the pleasure of driving one on the track.

The GT4 RS will not have the GT3 engine. No way that Porsche will do that.

Agreed. I can only imagine the pleasure of ringing out a naturally aspirated 500hp 4.0L flat six to 9000 rpms--sounds amazing. I too can't see them doing that.

Speaking of things Porsche may never do, do you think they will ever offer a mid-engine 911? Now that the Cayman/Boxster are stuck with 4 cylinder engines, could it make sense to design a 911 that is a two-seater with a mid-engine layout? The GT4 provides this niche, slightly, but the GT4 is built off of the Cayman, so it doesn't have the same build quality and class of the 911, and it is more track focused. It doesn't have the looks either. The rear on the 911 has always looked better, more exotic, especially the way the rear fenders curve against the shape of the wheels, or with the slope of the back, or with the shape of the headlights.

Before you or anyone answers that question, consider BMW as an example. They had the 3 series and the 5 series, and then they decided to divide the coupe and sedan of the 3 series into the 3 and 4 series, but after some time, the 4 series became more than a coupe platform, but also a sporty-looking or coupe-looking platform, as they created a 4 series grand touring 4-door sedan. They also have a fastback/coupe suv and sedan suv in every size imaginable. They are hell bent on saturating every niche that exists. Audi too. I could imagine Porsche could broaden their platforms with the new engines that couldn't have happened with the old engines.

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Agreed. I can only imagine the pleasure of ringing out a naturally aspirated 500hp 4.0L flat six to 9000 rpms--sounds amazing. I too can't see them doing that.



Speaking of things Porsche may never do, do you think they will ever offer a mid-engine 911? Now that the Cayman/Boxster are stuck with 4 cylinder engines, could it make sense to design a 911 that is a two-seater with a mid-engine layout? The GT4 provides this niche, slightly, but the GT4 is built off of the Cayman, so it doesn't have the same build quality and class of the 911, and it is more track focused. It doesn't have the looks either. The rear on the 911 has always looked better, more exotic, especially the way the rear fenders curve against the shape of the wheels, or with the slope of the back, or with the shape of the headlights.



Before you or anyone answers that question, consider BMW as an example. They had the 3 series and the 5 series, and then they decided to divide the coupe and sedan of the 3 series into the 3 and 4 series, but after some time, the 4 series became more than a coupe platform, but also a sporty-looking or coupe-looking platform, as they created a 4 series grand touring 4-door sedan. They also have a fastback/coupe suv and sedan suv in every size imaginable. They are hell bent on saturating every niche that exists. Audi too. I could imagine Porsche could broaden their platforms with the new engines that couldn't have happened with the old engines.

You lost me as soon as you said "BMW"

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Agreed. I can only imagine the pleasure of ringing out a naturally aspirated 500hp 4.0L flat six to 9000 rpms--sounds amazing. I too can't see them doing that.

Speaking of things Porsche may never do, do you think they will ever offer a mid-engine 911? Now that the Cayman/Boxster are stuck with 4 cylinder engines, could it make sense to design a 911 that is a two-seater with a mid-engine layout? The GT4 provides this niche, slightly, but the GT4 is built off of the Cayman, so it doesn't have the same build quality and class of the 911, and it is more track focused. It doesn't have the looks either. The rear on the 911 has always looked better, more exotic, especially the way the rear fenders curve against the shape of the wheels, or with the slope of the back, or with the shape of the headlights.

Before you or anyone answers that question, consider BMW as an example. They had the 3 series and the 5 series, and then they decided to divide the coupe and sedan of the 3 series into the 3 and 4 series, but after some time, the 4 series became more than a coupe platform, but also a sporty-looking or coupe-looking platform, as they created a 4 series grand touring 4-door sedan. They also have a fastback/coupe suv and sedan suv in every size imaginable. They are hell bent on saturating every niche that exists. Audi too. I could imagine Porsche could broaden their platforms with the new engines that couldn't have happened with the old engines.

I sure hope they don't. It's what makes a 911 a 911. It's what makes it different - gives it a noticeable advantage in certain situations, a noticeable disadvantage in other situations, and a noticeably different overall driving experience than just about any other car out there. They've been sticking with the same lineup recipe since the 60's.

[EAGLE5]

The Boxster and Cayman are purposefully handicapped. End of story. Gotta protect the 911.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I sure hope they don't. It's what makes a 911 a 911. It's what makes it different - gives it a noticeable advantage in certain situations, a noticeable disadvantage in other situations, and a noticeably different overall driving experience than just about any other car out there. They've been sticking with the same lineup recipe since the 60's.

Couldn’t the Corvette claim the same, except since the 50’s, yet here we are? Its drivetrain wasn’t as unique as the 911, but they realized the front-mid-engine with rear transaxle transmission wasn’t as ideal as a rear-mid-engine layout. Also, many Corvette snobs would rather have a base Corvette over a more expensive and faster Camaro ZL1 1LE, for example.

Similarly, many 911 snobs don’t want a Cayman, even if the GT4 has a Carrera engine and a 911 price tag and is a faster or better performing car. Call it a 911 and the old 911 the 911 touring or something, but there would be a niche for a two seater mid-engine 911. Obviously, it would turn the standard 911 into a compact Panamara—a family sports car—likely nullifying the existence of the current 911 GT3 and GT2, as the platform stands now, moving to the two seater mid-engine layout. Those track focused editions would be better with the rear-mid-engine layout anyways, especially since the 911 Turbo and GT2 are in a grey area right now because all 911s are now turbocharged.

It’ll need to happen eventually, just like it needed to with the Corvette. If not a mid engine then eventually a hybrid and then fully electric. It is just a matter of time.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

The Boxster and Cayman are purposefully handicapped. End of story. Gotta protect the 911.

You missed the second part to that—the 911 is purposefully handicapped too—with drivetrain configuration. Gotta protect the 911’s legacy; not necessarily its superiority.

The GT4 is already better than a base 911. Many journalists compare it head to head with the GT3 and some prefer the GT4 because of its handling alone.

[Irace86.2.0]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m0zP-NhuFI[/ame]

[EAGLE5]

I made it two minutes into that video. The guy is a bore. That was also with fast forwarding.

Being rear engine has some advantages that aren't quite up to mid-engine advantages. If Porsche pushed GT2 RS engine and downforce into the GT4, you'd see a faster car.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Speaking of things Porsche may never do, do you think they will ever offer a mid-engine 911? Now that the Cayman/Boxster are stuck with 4 cylinder engines, could it make sense to design a 911 that is a two-seater with a mid-engine layout? The GT4 provides this niche, slightly, but the GT4 is built off of the Cayman, so it doesn't have the same build quality and class of the 911, and it is more track focused. It doesn't have the looks either. The rear on the 911 has always looked better, more exotic, especially the way the rear fenders curve against the shape of the wheels, or with the slope of the back, or with the shape of the headlights.

No I doubt it. They will continue to handicap the Cayman. Currently it's done with: less powerful engines, inferior suspension design, and super tall transmission gearing.

Also there's no difference in build quality. So many parts are interchangeable between the two. Over half of the "under the skin" parts I've worked with are 911 parts (from 996 or 997 models).

It is incredibly annoying, however, how petty Porsche can be sometimes. My Cayman doesn't have an oil pressure sensor; just a switch. 911 pressure transducer is a direct drop replacement. Cost difference in parts (to me) is roughly $50 - I'm sure for Porsche themselves it's half that. Way to go cheap...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

No I doubt it. They will continue to handicap the Cayman. Currently it's done with: less powerful engines, inferior suspension design, and super tall transmission gearing.

Also there's no difference in build quality. So many parts are interchangeable between the two. Over half of the "under the skin" parts I've worked with are 911 parts (from 996 or 997 models).

It is incredibly annoying, however, how petty Porsche can be sometimes. My Cayman doesn't have an oil pressure sensor; just a switch. 911 pressure transducer is a direct drop replacement. Cost difference in parts (to me) is roughly $50 - I'm sure for Porsche themselves it's half that. Way to go cheap...

Is it really the same? The build quality on the Supra is more than the 86. The same can be said of a 7 series versus a 2 series BMW. Same can be said on the Toyota Avalon versus a Yaris or a Arteon/CC versus the Jetta. Is the Cayman really just the same as a 911?

I wasn’t really mentioning them improving the Cayman. I was mentioning them improving the 911 by having a mid engine 911 alongside the rear engine version. People already do 911 engine swaps into Caymans, and they do front end conversions on their Cayman to make them look like 911s. It seems like making a mid engine and rear engine 911 would satisfy the market while maintaining 911 supremacy over the Cayman.

[bfrank1972]

This whole mid-engine vs rear engine thing reminds me of the UEL vs EL debate. Mid engine is not necessarily better than rear engine. So many other factors cumulatively matter more. I think identity of the 911 is more important to Porsche (and many Porsche enthusiasts) than any 'benefits' of moving the engine forward in a 911 (i.e. losing the useless rear seat). They make the Cayman, buy one of those. It's the same recipe they had with the early 911s & 914s. Never gonna happen!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

This whole mid-engine vs rear engine thing reminds me of the UEL vs EL debate. Mid engine is not necessarily better than rear engine. So many other factors cumulatively matter more. I think identity of the 911 is more important to Porsche (and many Porsche enthusiasts) than any 'benefits' of moving the engine forward in a 911 (i.e. losing the useless rear seat). They make the Cayman, buy one of those. It's the same recipe they had with the early 911s & 914s. Never gonna happen!

Mid-engine will be better for track times. This is obvious when comparing the Cayman GT4's Nurburgring lap times versus similarly powered 911s, or if we compare similarly powered 911s like the GT2 RS to the Carrera GT.


Mid-engine will be better for handling, feel and control, in general, which is largely a restatement of the above.


Rear-engine is better for packaging four people in a car.


And what you said is exactly the idea, 911 buyers who want a mid-engine two-seater will need to downsize in displacement to the Cayman or buy a Cayman GT4 or find a different platform like the Corvette to satisfy their preferences.


If Porsche can call an all-electric car "Turbo" then they could still call a mid-engine 911 "911".

[EAGLE5]

No rear engine F1 cars last I checked.

[bfrank1972]

Well, not sure what "similar power" 911 you're talking about, but you really can't compare a GT4 to anything but a GT3 really. Suspension is a GT3 suspension optimized for the cayman platform. Limit the GT3 power output and I'd wager they would be very close. Regarding the CGT, again not sure which GT2 you're comparing it to. A modern GT2 will easily dominate the CGT with equal drivers, despite the CGT being a bespoke design. Silly to bring F1 cars as a comparison. Sure, mid engine theoretically "might" be better but in most cases it's much more complex than that, suspension gometry, COG, aero, packaging, etc have a bigger role. I don't think the 911 would realize that much by just moving the motor forward a bit, especially for the average driver. Obviously not going to convince you, and that's cool, just adding some perspective. I for one am glad they kept the 911 rear engined, and I really enjoy the feeling of driving their flawed design. Lots of good mid engine options our there, Cayman, Alfa 4C, Evora, Exige, F360 Cheers

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk