2014 86CUP Challenge to NorCal with NCRC

[themajesticone]

Hey guys - here are a couple laps from my last session this past weekend. First track day ever. Any criticisms? Unfortunately I didn't have that app to measure my speeds but hopefully you can still get an idea if my pace was decent. thanks!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUDryunnepY"]Thunderhill Raceway Session 5 DS - YouTube[/ame]

[EAGLE5]

I had stability control on most of the two days. It sometimes came on unnecessarily and periodically came on when I gave too much throttle mid turn. It really didn't make a difference overall and never came close to upsetting the car. It never once came on in turn eight.
In other words, you can sustain pretty crazy slip angles with stability control on. It mainly kicks in on sharp turns, with tail out drifts, and when a bump upsets the car mid turn.
I need an oil cooler.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

I had stability control on most of the two days. It sometimes came on unnecessarily and periodically came on when I gave too much throttle mid turn. It really didn't make a difference overall and never came close to upsetting the car. It never once came on in turn eight.
In other words, you can sustain pretty crazy slip angles with stability control on. It mainly kicks in on sharp turns, with tail out drifts, and when a bump upsets the car mid turn.
I need an oil cooler.

I've got 2.

[acx23]

You never want to have the car act unexpectedly. You might not feel it's killing your run right now, but as you get faster, either you add more power mods or otherwise, it will do you hurt.

How did you do at T Hill? What oil temp are you getting?

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

I had stability control on most of the two days. It sometimes came on unnecessarily and periodically came on when I gave too much throttle mid turn. It really didn't make a difference overall and never came close to upsetting the car. It never once came on in turn eight.
In other words, you can sustain pretty crazy slip angles with stability control on. It mainly kicks in on sharp turns, with tail out drifts, and when a bump upsets the car mid turn.
I need an oil cooler.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by acx23

I haven't used sports mode so I can't say, but I have ran some sessions when I forgot to turn traction off. I remember vividly that traction control kicked in when I was coming out of the apex of T6 at Laguna Seca. The car basically braked for a split second - nothing happened to me but it did kill my speed and momentum going up that hill to T7 and the corkscrew. T14-T15 at T Hill also got the traction control kicking in for me when I had it on.

I think it's best that you run without sports mode and without traction control (by holding down 5 secs).

I'd say traction control is a tool that everyone needs to figure out on their own. It has saved me from several spins but it became a major hamper quite a while back; so much so it was like a breath of fresh air to turn it off.

One thing I would strongly recommend is that people try turning it off at an autocross first, get to know what it is like to spin the car when you aren't talking about huge consequences. On track things can go from great to brutal in literally a fraction of a second and there ain't no reset button either. Too often you have one chance to choose what you do. For a beginner the traction control can lengthen the time to choose and keep you going straight. For an advanced driver your sight can let you recover far better than the traction control, but that is only if you can feel what the car is doing and anticipate how it is going to move, etc.

In other words, there is no hard and fast rule. I had a bad spin that scared me into keeping it on much longer than I should have, but at the same time I learned about just how fast things can change.

[sw20kosh]

If you are:

1. Smooth with your steering & pedal inputs (smooth not jerky turn in / squeeze not jab pedals). This is the most important and most under-emphasized skill to learn amongst beginners.
2. Have several track days under your belt
3. Are starting to pick up speed and get more comfortable with a particular track
4. Stability intruding on some corners

I highly recommend turning all trac/stability off. Makes a world of difference. Once you drive with it off you 100% wont want to turn it on ever again. You get to feel the car slide around and you feel what your inputs actually do. You have to un-learn the "stability will save my butt if I push it too hard" mentality though which is where problems will arise. When turning it off for the first time I would take the speed/aggressivness down a notch or two and progressively push the car slightly harder until you start to reach the limit of traction. This is where the fun beggins.

P.S. Some would actually argue that as a beginner you shouldn't learn to drive with the aids on at all. I've heard the argument that it hinders your learning speed.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by mkivsoopra

Hm, judging by the datalog and the video, I didn't completely lift off. It was low throttle input that I normally do for maintaining speed through a corner... or maybe just a bit under.

You could post the log file and session/lap to look at, then we can look at the data and the video! That said I notice that the front of your car is doing a very strange motion before the rear came out (looks bouncy right to left. I don't remember who it was that said they had weird suspension issues but if that was you then maybe that could be part of it? or maybe it was TC). Seeing that with the data logs could be very, very informative.

[themajesticone]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

If you are:

1. Smooth with your steering & pedal inputs (smooth not jerky turn in / squeeze not jab pedals)
2. Have several track days under your belt and have been approved for point-by
3. Are starting to pick up speed and get more comfortable with a particular track
4. Stability intruding on some corners

I highly recommend turning all trac/stability off. Makes a world of difference. Once you drive with it off you 100% wont want to turn it on ever again.

P.S. Some would actually argue that as a beginner you shouldn't learn to drive with the aids on at all. I've heard the argument that it hinders your learning speed.

I can attest that I am a true beginner and this weekend was my first go. First 3 sessions I had traction control completely on. 4th and 5th sessions I put the car in sport mode. Next time I may start in sport mode then move to everything off, but I wanted to have a gradual process. Having them on did help me understand where I was messing up in my lines, however, so in a sense it gave me perspectives to think about regarding my position in and out of turns (if that makes sense)

[unsurety]

I ran every session with VSC Sport. It would kick in occasionally at the top of a crest, but it never hampered me much. It helped me a lot in gauging my smoothness. VSC won't teach you to correct a slide but it will save you. Near the end of Sunday, I went into turn 6 too fast and completely missed the apex, and lifted too much. The rear end came around and I countered, but VSC came on and kept me on the track. Would have gone two wheels off otherwise.

For now, the risk outweighs the reward as I am a novice. If you're insistent on running without TC I would suggest using the pedal dance. That way, ABS is the only driving aide that truly stays active.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

If you are:

1. Smooth with your steering & pedal inputs (smooth not jerky turn in / squeeze not jab pedals). This is the most important and most under-emphasized skill to learn amongst beginners.
2. Have several track days under your belt
3. Are starting to pick up speed and get more comfortable with a particular track
4. Stability intruding on some corners

I highly recommend turning all trac/stability off. Makes a world of difference. Once you drive with it off you 100% wont want to turn it on ever again. You get to feel the car slide around and you feel what your inputs actually do. You have to un-learn the "stability will save my butt if I push it too hard" mentality though which is where problems will arise. When turning it off for the first time I would take the speed/aggressivness down a notch or two and progressively push the car slightly harder until you start to reach the limit of traction. This is where the fun beggins.

P.S. Some would actually argue that as a beginner you shouldn't learn to drive with the aids on at all. I've heard the argument that it hinders your learning speed.

I would generally agree EXCEPT that often times you don't know what is smooth or not until later. Best bet is to get help from someone who has gone through the transition. Once I turned it off I was amazed at how much more I felt from the car and also how much I could easily deal with because I wasn't fighting the car.

The not using it at all argument is also valid, but like so many things in life it comes down to how much you are willing to risk/bet and also which course you are at.

And of course, remember that I am a very cautious driver. I've been four off a total of twice in the 25 track days I've done; two off like three of four times.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by unsurety

I ran every session with VSC Sport. It would kick in occasionally at the top of a crest, but it never hampered me much. It helped me a lot in gauging my smoothness. VSC won't teach you to correct a slide but it will save you. Near the end of Sunday, I went into turn 6 too fast and completely missed the apex, and lifted too much. The rear end came around and I countered, but VSC came on and kept me on the track. Would have gone two wheels off otherwise.

For now, the risk outweighs the reward as I am a novice. If you're insistent on running without TC I would suggest using the pedal dance. That way, ABS is the only driving aide that truly stays active.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

Due to brake biasing issues and the tendency of beginners to mix inputs (remember the friction circle), I would advise against pedal dance until you are really comfortable with with traction control off and the art of trail braking. The e-diff really isn't very intrusive.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I would generally agree EXCEPT that often times you don't know what is smooth or not until later. Best bet is to get help from someone who has gone through the transition.

Get an instructor to ride with you when ever you can. I still do and I've been at this for a few years. Always learn many new/better behaviors/lines from a good vocal instructor like Bill from NCRC.

[acx23]

I've only successfully got the pedal dance to work for me once. The car has to be warmed up or it will not work. I've ran all year (~10 track days) with just turning the traction control off by holding it down for 5 secs. I've read arguments that it doesn't turn off the traction completely but I don't think it's true. I had zero interference just by turning it off complete.

Originally Posted by unsurety

For now, the risk outweighs the reward as I am a novice. If you're insistent on running without TC I would suggest using the pedal dance. That way, ABS is the only driving aide that truly stays active.

[themajesticone]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Get an instructor to ride with you when ever you can. I still do and I've been at this for a few years. Always learn many new/better behaviors/lines from a good vocal instructor like Bill from NCRC.

I need to do that next time. I'd like some help/input for sure