Let's discuss SCCA Stock Class

[Evil86]

Originally Posted by -max-

WTB: Anbody offloading RTR tires for the new stuff?

Wow, it's good to discover the Hotchkis front is too stiff. After all, I only ran it in RTR for half the last season in the AZSolo and the AZBR regions and was doing really well. Plus, I have been letting some of our top locals run it, and none of them said it was too much bar.
But, it's good to know.

[7thgear]

So i'm reading the coil-cooler thread, and now i'm reading the stock class/ rtr rules and oil-coolers are not permited

sad fucking panda

what's up with that?

[xwd]

Yeah there has been some talk in the past about allowing those. They aren't even allowed in the ST classes where people would be even more likely to have them. I could see them being allowed in ST if someone just wrote a letter to propose the addition.

I don't see an oil cooler as a performance benefit, it wouldn't really even come into play on an autocross course. They allow catch cans in stock class so there is some precedent.

[ABQautoxer]

The goal in SCCA is to keep stock as reasonably stock as possible plus the old rules inherited that made cars in past eras handle reasonably well (shocks, sway bar). There have been small concessions over the years (shift knob, catch can), but it just makes it hard in most cars to have a stock class car that you take to the track at times.

[race2win]

Well put Tom, if anything the stock class ruleset should be taken back some rather than allowing more. However, I can see oil coolers being allowed in ST* classes, since most casual track-day cars would fall into them mod-wise. There is debate going on right now regarding allowing them in Street Touring, but don't expect to see them legal in Stock anytime soon.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

As mentioned elsewhere, I had the car on the rack today and it just so happens my alignment guy is also an exhaust guy. We came up with a plan for a 2.5", single central muffler, single exit system that I figure will save almost as much weight as a muffler delete, will be PA legal, and I won't have to mess with! It'll be on by the car by spring.

Just to 'close the loop' on this:

I'm not really into exhausts so to speak, but I did want to drop some weight with minimal hassle. So, with the Borla cat-back system for 'inspiration', I had a local shop fab up a system.

First, they removed everything starting just forward of the small box resonator. Total weight removed according to my scale was 42.7 lb (3.8 box res + 12.5 mid/resonator assy + 26.4 axle back assy). They replaced that with 16 ga 2.5" OD SS tubing, a centrally-located Borla 40942 muffler, and more 16 ga 2.5" OD SS tubing. That's it - single exit, no tip, just functional. Total weight added back was ~20.6 lb (8.0 muffler, 11.6 pipe, ~1 for unmeasured hangers and welding), so the total savings is approximately the same as a muffler delete.

I don't put a lot of stock in exhaust videos, but I put this together just to see how it would turn out and compare to other videos:


I tried some inside shots with the gopro mounted to the side window, but at moderate revs you can't really hear the exhaust at all over the wind, road, and mounting/housing noises. In person, there are a couple interesting resonances in the 2k-3k range, but nothing bothersome and overall I'm satisfied with it.

As far as any power increase, I have no idea. I have no plans to dyno it and the axle-back part is 'crush bent', which probably compromised the benefit of the 2.5" a bit.

cheers!

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

So i'm reading the coil-cooler thread, and now i'm reading the stock class/ rtr rules and oil-coolers are not permited

sad fucking panda

what's up with that?

There is no reason a stock class car should require an oil cooler at autocross speeds and autocross lap times unless you are hot-lapping the bejesus out of the car. ...and it that case, you should probably let your tires cool down before they start chunking.

But to Tom's point above, yea the stock class rules for autocross don't really consider a "stock" autocross/track day car where some of those more preventative reliability modifications are important. There has always been a rule disconnect there.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

There is no reason a stock class car should require an oil cooler at autocross speeds and autocross lap times unless you are hot-lapping the bejesus out of the car. ...and it that case, you should probably let your tires cool down before they start chunking.

But to Tom's point above, yea the stock class rules for autocross don't really consider a "stock" autocross/track day car where some of those more preventative reliability modifications are important. There has always been a rule disconnect there.

thing is that while i intend to compete in autocross there are a number tracak days that i might hit up as well at some fast tracks (for instance Mosport International Raceway) that i have traditionally been out for 12-15 laps on at a time. I just don't want to put the car through something that will potentially damage it in the long run.

[xwd]

I think at some point the rules will be rewritten to cover what modern enthusiasts do to their cars and what makes the most sense. HPDE didn't really exist back when those rules were written but is extremely popular now. I'd like to see them allow upgraded radiators and oil coolers in stock.

There has been a lot of talk on other forums about stock class recently, like the current shock rules. I'd love to see them downgrade the current shock rule and add the ST allowance for front camber adjustment to stock class. It would help out all the camber limited cars and potentially save people a lot of money on race tires.

[MTCRX]

Originally Posted by dwx

I think at some point the rules will be rewritten to cover what modern enthusiasts do to their cars and what makes the most sense. HPDE didn't really exist back when those rules were written but is extremely popular now. I'd like to see them allow upgraded radiators and oil coolers in stock.

There has been a lot of talk on other forums about stock class recently, like the current shock rules. I'd love to see them downgrade the current shock rule and add the ST allowance for front camber adjustment to stock class. It would help out all the camber limited cars and potentially save people a lot of money on race tires.

I know rules need to stay current and relative. But I have a problem with constant revisions. To me stock is stock. If you want to add a radiator or an oil cooler you can go to a prepared or mod category, that is what their title says- prepared or modfied. With stock, everything should be stock. I still don't believe stock should have Dot-R tires, they should have street tires like ST class or RT class. How many cars can you buy off of a car lot with DOT-R's? (0?) If you change parts for an edge then eventually everyone else will change, then you are back to square one. In the case of stock I have the most problem because new, potential club members come in and see stock class thinking they might fit there with somewhat equal car prep, only to later learn, if this thread is followed, that the next guy has Hoosiers, a larger radiator and an oil cooler. They feel at a much greater disadvantage.The shock rule is a huge change from stock settings, and alignment should stay within stock ranges, otherwise you are drifting towards Prepared again. Too much messing with class changes, especially at the stock end, is changing the spirit of the class. With the classes the way they are now you can make mods and fit in somewhere. Too much complaining about unfair advantages already, so making changes to stock would make the differences in competitors that much worse. If you want to PREPARE your car for track days, etc. then you need to move to that class. But it is a slippery slope, start mods and continue to mod looking for that advantage that is mostly in driver ability anyway, not car prep necessarily.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by MTCRX

If you want to PREPARE your car for track days, etc. then you need to move to that class. But it is a slippery slope, start mods and continue to mod looking for that advantage that is mostly in driver ability anyway, not car prep necessarily.

you're taking this too literal

and it's not a slippery slope because i don't see how you're going to constitute a larger turbo as a safety feature

[mla163]

It is
These are the rules. Pick a car.

It is NOT
Pick a car. Adjust rules your benefit.

[SVThis]

Originally Posted by MTCRX

I know rules need to stay current and relative. But I have a problem with constant revisions. To me stock is stock. If you want to add a radiator or an oil cooler you can go to a prepared or mod category, that is what their title says- prepared or modfied. With stock, everything should be stock. I still don't believe stock should have Dot-R tires, they should have street tires like ST class or RT class. How many cars can you buy off of a car lot with DOT-R's? (0?) If you change parts for an edge then eventually everyone else will change, then you are back to square one. In the case of stock I have the most problem because new, potential club members come in and see stock class thinking they might fit there with somewhat equal car prep, only to later learn, if this thread is followed, that the next guy has Hoosiers, a larger radiator and an oil cooler. They feel at a much greater disadvantage.The shock rule is a huge change from stock settings, and alignment should stay within stock ranges, otherwise you are drifting towards Prepared again. Too much messing with class changes, especially at the stock end, is changing the spirit of the class. With the classes the way they are now you can make mods and fit in somewhere. Too much complaining about unfair advantages already, so making changes to stock would make the differences in competitors that much worse. If you want to PREPARE your car for track days, etc. then you need to move to that class. But it is a slippery slope, start mods and continue to mod looking for that advantage that is mostly in driver ability anyway, not car prep necessarily.

I agree. By the time you have changed to lighter wheels, replaced your swaybar, ehaust, shocks, bought Hoosiers ect, your costs begin to soar. Either the car is stock or it isn't.

[xwd]

The stock class rules are ancient compared to the other classes, they haven't really seen many revisions at all. The shock rules are from a time when shocks on most cars were terrible, and the tire rules are from a time when none of the classes ran on "street" tires.

Oil coolers and radiators aren't exactly performance items, they are for reliability and generally just add weight. There is an allowance for using catch cans in stock, that arguably has more of a performance benefit than either of those items. Unless you have a really crappy car, neither of those items will ever come into play on an autocross course.

Stock is at a point now where people are starting to question the rules. I'm fine with limiting the real performance enhancing items in stock like shocks, race tires, etc. I have Hoosiers but I don't see a point to them anymore, street tires are really really good at this point.