FA20 bolt-on horsepower gain potential

[skeg808]

I have a DC5 integra Type R with the original K20a engine from 2001 (JDM) and it responds exceptionally well to bolt on mods.

The Type R came with ~225hp at the crank (~195 whp) from the factory the JDM model was already tuned when it was stock thanks to easier breathing headers, aggressive cam profiles and port polishing.

With Intake, Throttle, Catback and Hondata remap it is now making 210 whp and its 12 years old with 85k kms on it.

The FA20 has lots of potential, but it will be years until it gets to the level of the K series Honda's.

As much as I love my BRZ, I still like to get back in the Honda for a real thrashing every now and then - nothing quite like a 9,000 RPM screaming beast.

[Ingen]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

If you put the same mods on a K20, will it gain more or less power than the mods put on the FA20?

I don't think the Borla UEL headers will bolt up to the K20...



Seriously though, apples and oranges man. The vast majority of the power available seems to be in the headers, then the intake - the header and intake you have chosen are not the ones most backed up with results.

Go P&L header (or wait on nameless), and TRD intake (SORRY, but best dyno results so far).

[2forme]

I must have been the only person to have a crappy K20. I had an intake and exhaust on my 08 Si, and it was still pretty slow under vtec. I enjoy the powerband of the FA20 much more. It's definitely more suited for every day use.

But on the topic, the K20 will always get more from mods because it just breathes better with the 2nd cam profile.

[wparsons]

Wait for cams and revving to ~9k to see how the FA20's do, but bolt on vs bolt on, the K20 definitely responds better.

There was (might still be around) a company that sold swap kits to put K20's into Elises that would regularly get 250whp on pump gas from an intake, header, exhaust and flash tune.

[mad_sb]

Note that the K24 above already has a 20% displacement advantage over the fa20 and less drive train loss (fwd has less loss than rwd which is less than awd). Taking away the displacement and drive train advantage that k24 would be making 175 - 180... right where the fa20 is with a few bolt ons. Not bashing the K series in the least just pointing out that liter to liter and drive train to drive train the numbers are about the same in this case.

Also, what did / do bolt on k20's make at 7,000 rpm? Revs are a huge advantage if the heads and cams are designed for it. and engine that makes 175 whp at 7,000 rpm is making about 130ftlb at 7,000 rpm. An engine that makes 130 ftlb at 8,000 rpm would be making 199whp at 8,000 rpm.

Equal length long tube headers seem to be the first part that allows for significant power gains with tuning. Given another year... cams that peak at 8,000 rpm along with the supporting valve train work and the fa20 could easily be at 230 - 240 whp on pump gas.

Thats not to say it would be cost effective since you have to drop the motor to do cams or head work... i think that is going to be the real weakness with the fa20

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

Note that the K24 above already has a 20% displacement advantage over the fa20 and less drive train loss (fwd has less loss than rwd which is less than awd). Taking away the displacement and drive train advantage that k24 would be making 175 - 180... right where the fa20 is with a few bolt ons. Not bashing the K series in the least just pointing out that liter to liter and drive train to drive train the numbers are about the same in this case.

Also, what did / do bolt on k20's make at 7,000 rpm? Revs are a huge advantage if the heads and cams are designed for it. and engine that makes 175 whp at 7,000 rpm is making about 130ftlb at 7,000 rpm. An engine that makes 130 ftlb at 8,000 rpm would be making 199whp at 8,000 rpm.

Equal length long tube headers seem to be the first part that allows for significant power gains with tuning. Given another year... cams that peak at 8,000 rpm along with the supporting valve train work and the fa20 could easily be at 230 - 240 whp on pump gas.

Thats not to say it would be cost effective since you have to drop the motor to do cams or head work... i think that is going to be the real weakness with the fa20

I was thinking exactly what your writing about!

It would only make sense if the k20 was restricted to 7450rpm and then the cams were changed to not have a high rev powerband. In that sense, the k20 would have significantly less power than the fa20, and the bolt on potential would be not as great.

Still i love K20!

[CSI:86]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Wait for cams and revving to ~9k to see how the FA20's do, but bolt on vs bolt on, the K20 definitely responds better.

There was (might still be around) a company that sold swap kits to put K20's into Elises that would regularly get 250whp on pump gas from an intake, header, exhaust and flash tune.

Yeah, when i had my Celica and was at the drag races in Eastern Creek. There was a guy who is on Lotustalk and he changed the 2zz-ge out of his Lotus Elise, sold the 2zz-ge, put a K20 in it, turboed it with forged internals, put a roll cage, and had full drag slicks on, ran a 8.8 sec 1/4 mile. Beat a Evo tommy makinen with supposedly 442awkw (592awhp). Utterly insane.

[bdub85]

Originally Posted by CSI:86

Yeah, when i had my Celica and was at the drag races in Eastern Creek. There was a guy who is on Lotustalk and he changed the 2zz-ge out of his Lotus Elise, sold the 2zz-ge, put a K20 in it, turboed it with forged internals, put a roll cage, and had full drag slicks on, ran a 8.8 sec 1/4 mile. Beat a Evo tommy makinen with supposedly 442awkw (592awhp). Utterly insane.

K20's are no joke. I was tempted to do a K20 swap into my EG hatch a few years back, but I ended up going with a non-vtec LS turbo. Pulled a LS motor and trans out of a junkyard integra for 200 bucks.

[2forme]

The K20s are great if you're looking for a whp figure. But in day to day driving, they were just like any other economy 4 cylinder. Still have to downshift to pass or get up a hill.

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I must have been the only person to have a crappy K20. I had an intake and exhaust on my 08 Si, and it was still pretty slow under vtec. I enjoy the powerband of the FA20 much more. It's definitely more suited for every day use.

But on the topic, the K20 will always get more from mods because it just breathes better with the 2nd cam profile.

I do like the FA20 for daily grunt in traffic and generally like the engine for different reasons from the K, but when I was NA on my K20 it was a screamer with IPS cams and upgraded valve train. When the rpm climbs up there that's where I start to feel somewhat underwhelmed with the FA20. I don't think it will ever have that kind of NA potential. As much as I've tried to shy away from it, I think a small turbo is right for this car to exploit what it's good at.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Jeff86

I do like the FA20 for daily grunt in traffic and generally like the engine for different reasons from the K, but when I was NA on my K20 it was a screamer with IPS cams and upgraded valve train. When the rpm climbs up there that's where I start to feel somewhat underwhelmed with the FA20. I don't think it will ever have that kind of NA potential. As much as I've tried to shy away from it, I think a small turbo is right for this car to exploit what it's good at.

Absolutely. That's what I was trying to say lol

[tripjammer]

Motiv is working on an intake manifold.

Maybe Grimmspeed will work on one too...

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

Motiv is working on an intake manifold.

Maybe Grimmspeed will work on one too...

Add Nameless to the list of possible manifold companies....

[Jeff86]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Absolutely. That's what I was trying to say lol

Word. I've gone back on forth on this car kinda wishing I could keep it NA for the throttle response and try to improve that. It's a wonderful car with what they did with compression and direct injection to push what they could from the motor. It's obviously a great combination for twisty roads and powering out of turns.

I like the results you got with e85. If I could get 200whp on 93 I'd probably keep her NA. It's just too inconvenient for me to fill all the time with e85 (without a flex fuel solution). Since you are 200whp on that fuel, how do you like it? Is 200 enough go or do you find yourself desiring more?