Motion Control Suspension Singles---SCCA Stock legal are done!

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

i myself have never ran on premium level dampers

i have ran on konis

supposedly the difference is huge, but i too am skeptical


how much grip would you gain over Konis and what would the theoretical time decrease on a 60 second autocross course.

Let's make a few things clear.

1. I run a business, and that business is selling parts.

2. I'm very upfront and honest about what I think about what parts. I might choose to run one over another, doesn't mean I can't carry other brands, some folks want them.

3. MCS have become very popular and done very well in Solo, and I have to offer my customers this option. I also have lots of other things from stuff I don't much love damper wise like Tein, to the production Koni's, to KW. When Ohlins comes out with their's I'll carry those as well because I am an Ohlins dealer.

4. Shocks don't "add grip" unless something is severely messed up with the previous set. They damp things. You can manipulate how the car responds to inputs, how it feels and deals with bumps, etc. Speed you get from damper changes generally comes from how well the damper works and getting the valving correct.

5. The hardest part of what I do is trying to explain "better" to someone, or figure out what they mean by "I want my car to handle better". Most of the time they can't tell me what they want to change about the handling characteristics of the car. I know what I don't like but your car is not my car and my job is to do the best I can to make *you* happy. I need information to do that, and if I get lousy information I can't do a very good job explaining the differences. Sometimes the proof is in the pudding, and seeing or feeling is believing. Frankly, a huge chunk of the job can be done by off the shelf Koni's and/or KW's with a coil-over setup. In fact I've tried to pick apart my KW's quite a lot to determine if I want to make a change there, so far I don't. Mind you I do run different spring rates, but mine aren't revalved like so many are convinced they "need to be"... in fact every revalved KW I've been on has been WORSE than the off the shelf version, without fail.

6. Please do not misinterpret my carrying these as standing on a soapbox saying "these are the best ever". Do you research independently. Talk to folks who've had both. Look at the results. Look at the build quality, etc. MCS's big thing is a huge range of adjustment in a very high quality damper.

[Sam Strano]

I want to add something I think is very, VERY important. I sort of hate to do this, but sometimes it matters.

I have 14 different SCCA National Championships. 7 Nationals, 6 ProSolo Class, and 1 ProSolo Overall. I've won Nationals and Pro titles in 4 different cars. I've won National events in many more cars. Hell I won 6 events this year in 4 different cars. I've won almost everything on off the shelf Koni's. I am a big, BIG believer in them at least as a starting point. I've run against competitors who also have many jackets with $6k shocks and beaten them..... all the way up to triple Penske's in two cases. Let me tell you that pisses folks off.

I've driven some pretty awesomely setup cars, I've drive some disasters. There is no direct correlation to the shocks on the car. Some of the best have been on great shocks (and it showed), but others were just well tuned on "lesser" shocks. I've also driven more screwed up stuff on high-dollar things, not so much because the shocks sucked (although that has happened), but because those folks tend to just throw lots of money at things without thinking them through, or being able to drive what the theoretical best is.

I am not standing here saying I have MCS you must have MCS. I am saying I offer them. And good shock valving is CRITICAL to having a car that easy to drive fast and consistently. I am no different than you, I spend my money on my parts. I take no free parts because I don't want to be biased about them. I have off the shelf Koni's on my Corvette, with a mount change for durability. I've considered MCS for it, but not for the previous one because while both are/were C6's there are differences in spring rate that I think the MCS might be able to help with. But I've not yet decided and I've got some further testing to do before I decide to make that step, including a set of KW dampers for the Corvette (shocks only no springs). They are sitting in my shop and going to be installed on a Grand Sport setup just like mine this week and tested on 12/15 in VA (weather permitting). Based on that I will consider next steps.

Understand that there is big difference between some guy who sells parts and likes to grandstand and make huge claims, and myself. I sell parts... I don't tend to promise anything I can't back up, I've got the results to prove that I have a pretty good clue what I'm doing, and while I work for myself and in a way that is commission sales... I have very low overhead and I can afford to not just sell anything I get a chance to, I'd rather sell what is right even if that costs me a sale. I want long term customers who are happy and tell others.

If you want my opinion, then call me. I'm ok with talking to folks... just as long as they aren't just using me for information. I ask for no consultation fee. I only ask that when you are ready to get something I get the shot at the business.

[Sccabrz192]

Sam, do you have any plans to test these out?

[Sam Strano]

Personally? No. But I'm sure I'll end up on a set in some car at an Evo School (one of the perks of being an instructor I get to drive a lot of stuff).

If I was setting up a CS/RTR car, I'd start with Koni. And for STX, I've been damned happy with the KW's.

[xwd]

For those who don't know MCS are the guys from Moton USA who started MCS when Moton was sold to AST. You aren't buying Moton parts but they are certainly Moton level parts for those who are familiar with them.

They have been working for some time on this suspension setup along with the DA/remote canister setups. I was originally going to go with a Penske setup but have since switched to MCS since they are local to me, have the suspension basically done at this point, and have been great to deal with. They focused on the FR-S/BRZ early on even though they are a relatively small shop.

These should work very well on the street as well as the track/autocross. MCS has outstanding support, is in the US (Atlanta), and has a lot of experience with both track and autocross.

The STU-winning M3 from nationals last year was running the MCS DA setup. There is at least one national champion autocrosser also running them (not me!) on his CS FR-S this year.

[GC86]

Originally Posted by gmookher

for that money with Ground control I got dual adjustable Konis' front(rears avail soon but I wanted it now, so can upgrade later if needed and sell my barely used ones on ebay or here)

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

You got a cobbled together kit which doesn't have vehicle specific dampers. Just because they fit doesn't mean they are valved for the car. They use generic race inserts and make housings to accommodate.

Ground Control certainly does not want to hijack a thread about MCS, after all we sell those struts and shocks also.

I can't blame anyone for assuming that GC just uses a "generic race insert", because it is hard to understand how much testing could be done by some, while others are preordering off-the-shelf street Konis.

GC has been fortunate to be able to do extensive testing, because we had Koni build special strut inserts in Holland, and they are already here. We did not have to wait for anything to arrive in February or March.

Attached below are 4 different FT86 struts, including Koni race and Koni SPGC custom valving.

I will continue this in another thread, so it doesn't hijack Lex and Jerome any more than necessary to clarify.

[Sam Strano]

The fluctuations in the compression curves are something I've seen before in products such as this. Last time was a set for an FC RX7. Further the dead linear valving is not something I personally believe in, and there is a lot of cross-talk going on there.

As for finding it odd that I would question this but be comfortable with a Koni production damper. Well, yeah. First there is the track record I have with Koni and it's not very often they screw up their Sport valving. And I'm pretty sure they won't cross-talk that much, and will at some point go digressive on the valving.

Part of the issue with a linear shock is very simple to understand. If you want low speed change, to get it gets you a much bigger high speed change. Because low-speed is what controls roll and pitch rate, I think it's critical. If you lack sufficient force, then you need to make the car a lot stiffer to get the response you want without having to run a crap-ton of force which isn't good over bumps. But then the higher spring rate isn't as good over bumps either.

What the MCS's do way better than say a Koni Sport is they ride bumps EXTREMELY well. Lots of low speed force relative to what you get on the high speed side. So you get the control you want, without the huge downside. Is that worth the money involved? It's personal. But most everyone who has run a truly good premium shock (there are those that claim to be but don't work as well or break a lot) like MCS of Ohlins, etc will swear by the difference in ride.

[xwd]

Yes, here is an example of the front MCS shocks for a S2K (custom valved).

[Sam Strano]

First, different car. Second.... custom valved (and people do lots of odd things for odd reasons). Also those are doubles so the bump and rebound are independent. Third, even though they are very digressive on bump that particular set is more linear on rebound (except at around full stiff). Still I'd like to see more knee in them... but even still you find that at/near full stiff on the rebound side you get a much bigger low speed change than without as massive a high-speed change.

[Sccabrz192]

Sam,

I saw your assessment of the triples on FB with the BFG tire on the GS. Per your comments, significant damper adjustment was necessary to dial in the combo... would there not be similar concern for this car on singles without multiple re-valves?... what type of price difference would we see to jump to a double adjustable?

[Sam Strano]

Let's keep this in perspective. We are talking about very different cars (and a Corvette with a decidedly non stock setup).

That car is sprung hugely too stiff, despite that the range of adjustment in MCS's helped get it better. The BFG's themselves feel much stiffer, only adding to the issues. And the car is over 300 pounds lighter than say my GS, again making it relatively stiffer again.

The simple matter here is someone will always want to play around with damping and I'm sure that someone will always have an issue with damping as delivered in any shock no matter who makes it. If this wasn't the case then everyone running X car would 100% agree on what valving, what setting, what spring, what tire pressure, etc. Now, I know that Tim knows most all this... and what I'm saying isn't so much for his sake but others.

I'm not going to jerk your chains. What I found were dampers that had noticeable effects and sucked up bumps better. We are out of range on the bottom of the shock because this car was SOOOO STIFF it required me to kill the force to get anything to happen good. With a more appropriate spring, I'm sure we'll be back in the meat of the range.

As for the price difference to doubles... ok, high speed or low? Which do you want adjustable, because you have to pick one or the other in stock. At some point we have to put some trust in the guys making the dampers and try them. And then work from there. Nobody ever has the magic answer... and certainly not immediately. But a better damper is a better damper and one with more range than less allows you to get closer faster, and ultimately maybe hit the nail on the head sooner as an individual.

[xwd]

I stopped by MCS yesterday and met with Lex for a bit. Definitely high quality parts they are developing. They had a box of the stock class billet perches, good stuff. One of the only vendors I have seen design and build custom perches for stock and RTR classes.