Shopping between BRZ and MX-5. Can't get over torque dip.

[RayRay88]

The 4.3 FD in the 17+ MT cars definitely help with the torque dip. Believe me its there but way less noticeable.

[Qwimby1]

I sold my 05 MX5 Mazdaspeed with countless modifications when I bought my 14 monogram addition. I wish I hadn't done it. The FRS is a great car, but I've never captured the tossable feeling that I had with the Mazda. There are also many more modification options available for the Mazda. Flyin' Miata alone is a marvelous resource.


I like the FRS, and bought it because Mazda refuses to bring a hardtop coupe to the states. I have no use for ragtops. I also admit that some of my regret is in buying a black car. If I had a silver one, I might feel differently. I'll never buy a black car again.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Much of this is subjective but I will adres a couple of the points in no particular order or semblance of logic.


1 We suck at convincing people to buy these cars. I hate to break out a cliché but to use the words of many on here "you either get the car or not"


2 The torque dip is meaningless for day to day driving and has nothing to do with the punch when you take off the line. If looking for a rush from flooring it you will be disappointed. No matter what the guys on the Miata forum say you will not get any better from the MX. You need to go to a whole different platform for that.


3 Both are sports cars not GT, muscle or pony cars. Don't expect them to be anything different.


4 You are used to the low end torque of a truck. No amount of mods to either of these cars will match that. None.


5 The "next gen" will either be very much the same as the current or very very different. It will not be the same only better. Take that as good or bad but if they make half the changes people scream for then it will be bigger, heavier and much more costly which means it will no longer be a competitor in the sports car class (especially the Miata) but will have to fight it out with the Mustangs and Camaros of the world. This will open up new doors and close many old ones.

I wasn't looking for people to convince me, but just to share reasons why they own theirs. From what I can gather, when others made a decision in the same situation I'm in, they simply asked themselves if driving feel is more important than marginal practicality. Now this is said withmy opinion that the MX-5 is a better driver feel car. This isn't a clear 100% win as I think the BRZ has better corner feel. However, throttle response, and the nimbleness of the MX-5 fits my driving style / wants a bit more if I had to rate them, it'll be 8/10 vs. 7/10.

The reasons why the people can get over the practicality advantages have done so with logical reasoning, and that's the convincing. Not someone telling me the car is clearly better. However, the same advice was said here too. You can simply rent a truck. The fact that you can't simply just go out to buy a MX-5 whenever you want is also very real. You must fit a very strict criteria for it to be feasible as a purchase. Where the BRZ would be a lot easier to pull the trigger on unless you're really in need of a truck / van. Right now, I can actually live with a MX-5, and that might not be the case if I was a DJ or something. The BRZ would be practical enough to allow a DJ to live and still have a fun car to drive.

Either way, I've not signed anything yet, and the deals coming in for the BRZ is clearly lower cost, and has more to offer. The Carplay / Android Auto is better implemented in the BRZ, the creature comfort things are better. I can get the performance package while the MX-5 won't sniff it. I probably don't need it, but the value is great.

I'm literally $500 away from signing on the MX-5, but if that does not go through, I'm $500 away from the BRZ with PP. These cars are very close, and it is really hard to choose.

As for the power argument. This is the exact same thing about the S2000 people talked about. I'm not saying you can't drive around it. However to say that the S2000 power curve didn't show itself would be downplaying it.

In a vacuum, the dip is fine, I wouldn't care honestly. However, when compared to the experience of the MX-5 drive, it's just "different" and I'll leave it at that. I personally do not like when reviewers talk about it, so I can only imagine how sick everyone here is of hearing it as well. I just brought it up because I finally felt it in my limited driving time. I didn't get to drive "around" it during my test drive, so all points given to me here are valid that I did not judge the BRZ in the best light possible.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by KAuss

I wasn't looking for people to convince me, but just to share reasons why they own theirs. From what I can gather, when others made a decision in the same situation I'm in, they simply asked themselves if driving feel is more important than marginal practicality. Now this is said withmy opinion that the MX-5 is a better driver feel car. This isn't a clear 100% win as I think the BRZ has better corner feel. However, throttle response, and the nimbleness of the MX-5 fits my driving style / wants a bit more if I had to rate them, it'll be 8/10 vs. 7/10.

The reasons why the people can get over the practicality advantages have done so with logical reasoning, and that's the convincing. Not someone telling me the car is clearly better. However, the same advice was said here too. You can simply rent a truck. The fact that you can't simply just go out to buy a MX-5 whenever you want is also very real. You must fit a very strict criteria for it to be feasible as a purchase. Where the BRZ would be a lot easier to pull the trigger on unless you're really in need of a truck / van. Right now, I can actually live with a MX-5, and that might not be the case if I was a DJ or something. The BRZ would be practical enough to allow a DJ to live and still have a fun car to drive.

Either way, I've not signed anything yet, and the deals coming in for the BRZ is clearly lower cost, and has more to offer. The Carplay / Android Auto is better implemented in the BRZ, the creature comfort things are better. I can get the performance package while the MX-5 won't sniff it. I probably don't need it, but the value is great.

I'm literally $500 away from signing on the MX-5, but if that does not go through, I'm $500 away from the BRZ with PP. These cars are very close, and it is really hard to choose.

As for the power argument. This is the exact same thing about the S2000 people talked about. I'm not saying you can't drive around it. However to say that the S2000 power curve didn't show itself would be downplaying it.

In a vacuum, the dip is fine, I wouldn't care honestly. However, when compared to the experience of the MX-5 drive, it's just "different" and I'll leave it at that. I personally do not like when reviewers talk about it, so I can only imagine how sick everyone here is of hearing it as well. I just brought it up because I finally felt it in my limited driving time. I didn't get to drive "around" it during my test drive, so all points given to me here are valid that I did not judge the BRZ in the best light possible.

You won't like the BRZ. You've brought up the torque dip so much that it's become something so much bigger than it actually is.

Your choice is clear to me and to many others here. If for whatever reason you bought the BRZ, you would regret it.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by NeverInTime

The torque 'dip' has never been an issue for me commuting in LA traffic. If there's an opening in traffic that requires me to speed up quickly, a downshift ALWAYS gets me where I want to go. But I understand if you don't want to do that, it's easier not having to do so.

The BRZ is is only a money pit if you want to throw power mods at it, but that also applies to any car. There's plenty of people who mod their MX-5's with superchargers and tunes just like with the BRZ/86. Both car scenes have a robust aftermarket community, so I think it's just your perception of the people who drive these cars honestly. In the bay area and so cal, there are a ton of young guys with their modded-out FRS/86/BRZs, so I can understand where that comes from. However, keep in mind that the most visible (and sometimes the most audible ones) aren't indicative of the community average, a lot of the guys on here are as old (if not older) than you are.

My opinion based on reading your posts is that you're putting forth a pretty strong conscious effort to justify the MX-5 despite saying you're on the fence. I would honestly just stop playing devil's advocate with yourself and go with what you've been wanting all along. The MX-5 is a great car, and if you do want to take advantage of the occasional bout of good weather in the Bay (microclimates permitting), driving around with the top down is a experience unlike any other.

Over the course of the two threads, (here and at Miata forum) I did start to drift towards the MX-5. Described why in the post you quoted. Prior to starting this, I was on the fence. To me, there are way more ways to mod the twins than the Miata. People who mod the Miata are most likely doing performance mods, and there are tons of branching off there. The twins however can go many more ways. Like I would probably not find someone looking to put 2 12' subs in their Miata, where I can / will totally do that with the BRZ. There's probably no way to put in an aftermarket deck at all with the HD. The BRZ is a straight up double din replacement.

I currently am looking to close on the MX-5 pending a free Android Auto retrofit. If I get that worked in, I'm going to sign it. If not, I'm looking to see if I can get a few hundred more off on a 19 BRZ limited with PP.

The way I'm seeing it now, I'll give up the throttle response of the ND for more practicality (I'm not comparing to a mini van) in the BRZ. Both cars will be fun to drive. Just that there are the fractions more on the MX-5 to me.

The torque dip here is literally the same as saying the MX-5 has a lot of body roll. You can drive around both, and be fast in both. It's just some will be completely turned off by body roll, while some would be turned off by a weird gap in power. I can put up with either honestly, but do find the throttle response more fitting to my wants. The BRZ is not a bad drive at all. I also like the fact that it encourages shifting, but sometimes, that encourages me to "other" things once I start flooring the pedal. This is why Goku don't go Super Saiyan everywhere he goes. You gotta pick and choose your fights. I think flat out both cars are stupid quick for what I'll plan on doing with it.

[HKz]

whew, just get the Miata or better yet a Mustang o.O I can't imagine there's anyone out there who has complained this much about the torque dip and power in NA 4 bangers before buying the car and end up being satisfied. I've driven a NC & ND (old engine) and besides the more visceral sensation with the roof down, never once did it feel more powerful than the twins. I'm sure the updated engine makes it better but it is still driving an "underpowered" NA 4 banger. Too many folks do not get the proper test drives of these cars and they end up shifting way too early or they never downshift..

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

You won't like the BRZ. You've brought up the torque dip so much that it's become something so much bigger than it actually is.

Your choice is clear to me and to many others here. If for whatever reason you bought the BRZ, you would regret it.

If I can get the Android Auto retrofit for free on my current quote, you would be correct. However, this thread, and the thread over at Miata forums did help in me making that decision. If that does not go through, there's still a chance the $ difference between the two will make me want to get the BRZ. This is literally 1a and 1b. I was just offered a Grey Series for $30,xxx OTD. I know the limited run on that car will hold a bit more value, but I absolutely hate the color. Again, I can live with the color if the car price is good enough. It'll hurt less when I get the inevitable ding / scratch.

Though I think many here are starting to feel that my choice is 1 and 3 instead of 1a and 1b. I'm seriously looking at both, and I've followed this car since it was in concept. I actually was around when this forum was new. I've wanted this car for a LONG time now. I just wanted the MX-5 a little longer.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by HKz

whew, just get the Miata or better yet a Mustang o.O I can't imagine there's anyone out there who has complained this much about the torque dip and power in NA 4 bangers before buying the car and end up being satisfied. I've driven a NC & ND (old engine) and besides the more visceral sensation with the roof down, never once did it feel more powerful than the twins. I'm sure the updated engine makes it better but it is still driving an "underpowered" NA 4 banger. Too many folks do not get the proper test drives of these cars and they end up shifting way too early or they never downshift..

I didn't want this to piss people off, but yeah I'm cool and understand where people are coming from. As I said otherwise, people criticize the MX-5 for body roll, and ultimately praise the twins for the flatness. I think it's a valid point of argument for the BRZ, I don't get much push back from the Miata forum when bringing it up. I'm not expecting people to be ok with this, but I'm sure the S2000 guys feel the same way because of how overblown HP has been in the car industry.

Again I apologize if this triggered people. I just felt that I had to at least be honestly in my opinion of both vehicles in my a / b test. Bottom line is, the forums both have contributed in tipping the scales, and as more posts get typed, the more it's evident where my heart is.

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

It's a completely fair criticism to me, the FA20 isn't a smooth reving engine.
You most certainly can drive around it, but compared to the revised motor in the MX5 It falls on it's face as you push through the mid range RPM band.

Each car is a ton of fun in their own right, the BRZ/86 is far more practical. Once you drop the rear seats you can fit all sorts of stuff back there. As a sole DD it would be the better choice even though the motor isn't as good.

This may be worth checking out. He owns a FRS with some power mods to smooth out the engine.

This is what I'm saying, not what some people are making it out to be. Just like how body roll on the MX-5 made it so I can't corner as fast because I don't know the limit during my drive. I'm way more confident driving the BRZ around a bend right out of the box. IN fact, the Miata guys said the BRZ is more track ready out the box than a MX-5. I tend to agree.

I can also understand why the criticism is such a trigger, and for that I'm just going to leave it where it is. I'll watch that video too. I think I've watched every video about the two cars the last couple weeks. I also agree the BRZ is a better highway cruise control machine. I know I'm giving something up to get the MX-5 on that comparison. In fact, it's all about what I'm willing to sacrifice in this conversation so far. Right now, it boils down to me being able to afford / cope with the sacrifices. It's purely what it is. Owning a MX-5 is a compromise to owning a BRZ. I think that's probably a more acceptable POV instead of using the power angle to justify for both arguments.

Edit: I actually saw Topher's videos on all three of his drives. Even the night one. What he summed it up to be was that he clearly does not know which car he'd rather have. I'm EXACTLY feeling the same. Again, he has modded his car to fit his driving, and even he as a owner have criticized both cars rightfully so on their shortcomings. I took his POV in to account and honestly, I find most people end up in this camp than not when comparing these cars.

[Docdoc]

For me I was sucked into the story a bit at first, I mean a lot of things had to align for Subaru and Toyota to build the 86 platform in the first place. I bought one of the first ones back in 2012, it was the first year made a 2013, Hot Lava, 6 speed. They were really quite rare back then. I could not go anywhere with out someone taking pictures of it or talking to me at the lights.

I even got pulled over by a cop once and I honestly think he just wanted a closer look. He asked me who makes this? and what color is this. (I don't think he seen one before that moment).

Driving it for me was about how I was always in control, how I was at the center of the car. What ever I did to it, no matter how hard I pushed it, I never got queasy and never got scared that the car was doing something I did not want. The 2013 models with eco Prius tires were very happy to get loose and I just turned in every time and the car corrected. It's quite fun to do. I got rid of it in 2016ish (wife/new kid) then found I still wanted it so I bought another one this time a used 2014, Hot Lava, 6 speed. The Miata looks fun too, but I also like how much community and aftermarket their is for the GT86.

I don't plan on getting rid of it for quite some time.

Docdoc

[Decep]

I mean on paper i see why they're cross shopped, but in reality it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Miata is a toy. It's also miserable unless the top is down..which frankly i wouldn't want to do every time i drive a car. A great, fun toy but i wouldn't want one as my only car. I also wouldnt want to subject the wife to a road trip in it due to that idiotic design with the transmission tunnel eating into the passenger side footwell. Torque dip is annoying but not a big deal in every day life. The power off idle is actually pretty damn good for a NA 4 banger. You have the dead spot then it picks up again at 5k for another 2000 rpm. Ergonomics are just so much better in the BRZ/FRS for me and i bet most would feel that way unless you're short. Better driving position, more leg room, more hip room, better seats (havent tried the ND's recaros though). For a daily driver these things matter big time.

Miata has a nice advantage in that its suspension is adjustable so you dont necessarily have to add camber plates or bolts, nor adjustable control arms. For me i'd want coilovers still.

edit: regarding the fuel economy, i wouldnt worry about the twins, lowest i've ever gotten is 27. I used to get 32 mpg driving like an asshole all the time, but once i changed out the stock low rolling resistance tires you will drop 2-3 mpg.

[KAuss]

Well the only dealer working with me today was the Subaru dealer. I might end up with a quote of a Limited with PP in metallic grey under $27,000 or right at $27,000. If I can't get the Android Auto retrofit from Mazda, I might bite on that. Car is going to be fresh off truck in April, and I think the extra $3.5Kish I save initially can be used towards mods immediately. I think the Mazda guy was off today.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by KAuss

I didn't want this to piss people off, but yeah I'm cool and understand where people are coming from. As I said otherwise, people criticize the MX-5 for body roll, and ultimately praise the twins for the flatness. I think it's a valid point of argument for the BRZ, I don't get much push back from the Miata forum when bringing it up. I'm not expecting people to be ok with this, but I'm sure the S2000 guys feel the same way because of how overblown HP has been in the car industry.

Again I apologize if this triggered people. I just felt that I had to at least be honestly in my opinion of both vehicles in my a / b test. Bottom line is, the forums both have contributed in tipping the scales, and as more posts get typed, the more it's evident where my heart is.

what is triggering is how often you're bringing up torque dip/power when you're getting into the wrong class of cars if it means that much to you no one gets a S2000, Miata or 86/BRZ if power is a concern otherwise you'll end up in one of the many "bye ft86club" threads where they end up talking shit about how crappy the 86 platform is


...really the only worthwhile difference to discuss between a Miata and 86/BRZ should be whether you want a drop top or practicality...body roll can easily be removed with coilovers..

[KAuss]

Originally Posted by HKz

what is triggering is how often you're bringing up torque dip/power when you're getting into the wrong class of cars if it means that much to you no one gets a S2000, Miata or 86/BRZ if power is a concern otherwise you'll end up in one of the many "bye ft86club" threads where they end up talking shit about how crappy the 86 platform is


...really the only worthwhile difference to discuss between a Miata and 86/BRZ should be whether you want a drop top or practicality...body roll can easily be removed with coilovers..

Dude, I've been on this forum longer than you have. I'm not here to troll. I'm seriously considering. This is the quote I just got today for a series grey.

selling price 27,500
tax 2,344
license 406
tire fee 8.75
Electric reg 30
Total: 30,374

It all boils down to money. If you guys are seriously that defensive about the topic, it's fine, I respect that. Again, someone talking about the S2000 will always mention about the power. Someone talking about the MX-5 ND will talk about the body roll. I'm not going to mention it again, because of how touchy it has become, but yeah, there's still a chance I end up with one. So we'll see. If not, just note that you all have helped me make the decision, I just know how to value it better.