2019 Special Edition BRZ, any ideas???

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rvoll

This is just not true. If you've ever been through corporate ROI analyses, and I've been through hundreds of them, you have volumes based on either a growing brand or a specific product lifecycle. It is certainly not the former, and if it is the latter, then there will be an end based upon profitability/margin analysis. There is also the consideration of using limited capital for future development for increased corporate ROI's. So even if that product is profitable, if there is a better opportunity, you'll put that developmental capital into that new opportunity. It isn't a static analysis based upon just one specific product.

Your last statement about the Supra is also clearly not relevant to the statement that was made in the article. Your assumption that a next gen comment must be in the same "ballpark" as the current market is a very limited parochial perspective. From a corporate point of view, a new sports car, even if significantly more expensive, could well be the next generation of sports car in the truest sense. Remember that profit margins on the new Supra will probably be significantly higher than a lower priced, budget sports car. Also, from Toyota's perspective, they are foregoing the profit that Subaru makes on production, so it is even more likely that they will put their capital in other places.

The automotive business is a different mater. The ROI on this model could be purely based on brand hype and have no monetary value to Toyota at all. Not all cars or special versions of cars are intended to generate a profit. I would be swayed if you can put Toyota's business plan in front of me verses using generic examples based on unknown products.


That would make it a replacement for the 86 not the next gen of it. The costs for the Supra are going to be much greater though so if there is any change in profit it will probably be less not greater.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not all cars or special versions of cars are intended to generate a profit.

Tell this to the shareholders. Lol.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Tell this to the shareholders. Lol.

They sold the shareholders a high development cost, low margin, joint venture, limited production number car in the first place. By the mistaken logic being applied here the car should never of hit the market at all.
I repeat, not all cars are made to generate direct profit. Some serve other business purposes and actually can cost the company capital. Toyota isn't a roadside stand selling tomatoes and they can and do invest money in one area knowing it will pay off in another.
Case in point: https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/13/...-ride-sharing/

[ermax]

Remember when Toyota made that car called the Celica which became the "Celica Supra" and then just the Supra and then they had a Celica and a Supra and then just Celica...... then FR-S..... and so on.

Who knows what they have planned.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Remember when Toyota made that car called the Celica which became the "Celica Supra" and then just the Supra and then they had a Celica and a Supra and then just Celica...... then FR-S..... and so on.

Who knows what they have planned.

And that just touchs on the North Americian market. It gets even more convoluted if you look at the whole world.

Yep all the speculation can be fun but they will tell us what is what when they are ready. It could be something that nobody guessed.

[Stephen W.]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And that just touchs on the North Americian market. It gets even more convoluted if you look at the whole world.

Yep all the speculation can be fun but they will tell us what is what when they are ready. It could be something that nobody guessed.

Yeah! Remember when the Celica was AWD?

[yurikaze]

I'm certain there'll be a 2019.
There was a major refresh for 2017.
Improvements for 2018:
New headunit for the Subaru, new light stalks, modified subframe,
and introducing both the GT and GT Black models for the Toyota 86.

Sales are still at level that can carry the model, it was never meant to be a big seller, and it helps to classify them as a single car, since Subaru and Toyota each get a cut of profits on it.
It's also a car that is still having good sales in Japan and Australia. Europe was the only market it has actually tanked in.
New Limited editions are still be introduced in Japan too, and this was recent with the blue 86. The US usually gets its special editions announced a few months after Japan, even when it's almost identical spec, (see: Series.yellow and Solar Orange edition (JDM)/860 (USDM).

You also have to realize that the 86 twins take a slower schedule than other cars.
The tS model wasn't announced until the middle of June last year,
and it wasn't until February that the '18 models started showing up when often times a new model will drop around August.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The automotive business is a different mater. The ROI on this model could be purely based on brand hype and have no monetary value to Toyota at all. Not all cars or special versions of cars are intended to generate a profit. I would be swayed if you can put Toyota's business plan in front of me verses using generic examples based on unknown products.


That would make it a replacement for the 86 not the next gen of it. The costs for the Supra are going to be much greater though so if there is any change in profit it will probably be less not greater.

Really? Fuji Heavy Industries doesn't have any fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders? Really????

So let's take your arguments separately one level deeper. First, your brand hype argument. The Subaru brand is based on all wheel drive vehicles for families. Almost all of their advertising deals with family, safety, and car value. They never mention the BRZ. At the dealer, few sales people know anything about the BRZ. In fact, when I recently shopped for mine, I knew far more about the features and specs than either the sales or service people. NONE of the sales people knew the difference between the Limited and Premium models. There is NOTHING about the BRZ that helps the Subaru brand. In fact, it takes away from the brand from a marketing perspective.

Secondly, the profit argument. This is purely specious. Company management has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to make a profit AND increase profits over time. If you were Chevy and have the Corvette, you not only sell enough to make a profit, but it's a good lead car for the Camaro. Chevy has a performance brand where Corvette can be the leader.

Toyota is especially profit oriented. Can you name any Toyota models, sold in all dealerships, that wasn't a supported model? The fact that the Supra is significantly more expensive than the 86 is irrelevant. The 86 has proven that there isn't a whole lot of volume for cheap sports cars. If you are going to introduce a lower volume model, you'd better charge enough to have high margins. Toyota is NOT a sports car company. Having two sports cars in their lineup makes absolutely no marketing sense.

These are large corporate entities, not small specialty car makers. Now if you could show me any evidence in terms of advertising/marketing/sales promotions that use the BRZ or 86 as a lead item for their brands, I might change my mind.

Neither of us are a part of Subaru or Toyota senior management, so we don't know for sure. But your arguments are illogical and just make no sense. I wouldn't want you running my company putting out products are are designed to bring me a loss......

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by yurikaze

I'm certain there'll be a 2019.
There was a major refresh for 2017.
Improvements for 2018:
New headunit for the Subaru, new light stalks, modified subframe,
and introducing both the GT and GT Black models for the Toyota 86.

Sales are still at level that can carry the model, it was never meant to be a big seller, and it helps to classify them as a single car, since Subaru and Toyota each get a cut of profits on it.
It's also a car that is still having good sales in Japan and Australia. Europe was the only market it has actually tanked in.
New Limited editions are still be introduced in Japan too, and this was recent with the blue 86. The US usually gets its special editions announced a few months after Japan, even when it's almost identical spec, (see: Series.yellow and Solar Orange edition (JDM)/860 (USDM).

You also have to realize that the 86 twins take a slower schedule than other cars.
The tS model wasn't announced until the middle of June last year,
and it wasn't until February that the '18 models started showing up when often times a new model will drop around August.

The improvements for 2018 are extremely minor for the BRZ and 86. And I don't know where you get the idea that sales in Europe are strong. For the first four months of this year in Europe, the BRZ sold 168 cars and the 86 sold 488 cars. The good news for Europe is that the BRZ has never sold a lot of cars. But the U.S. is the big market outside of Japan. So I don't understand your argument....

[bkharmony]

If there's a Series Gray, I'm getting one. I love that color.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Really? Fuji Heavy Industries doesn't have any fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders? Really????

So let's take your arguments separately one level deeper. First, your brand hype argument. The Subaru brand is based on all wheel drive vehicles for families. Almost all of their advertising deals with family, safety, and car value. They never mention the BRZ. At the dealer, few sales people know anything about the BRZ. In fact, when I recently shopped for mine, I knew far more about the features and specs than either the sales or service people. NONE of the sales people knew the difference between the Limited and Premium models. There is NOTHING about the BRZ that helps the Subaru brand. In fact, it takes away from the brand from a marketing perspective.

Secondly, the profit argument. This is purely specious. Company management has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to make a profit AND increase profits over time. If you were Chevy and have the Corvette, you not only sell enough to make a profit, but it's a good lead car for the Camaro. Chevy has a performance brand where Corvette can be the leader.

Toyota is especially profit oriented. Can you name any Toyota models, sold in all dealerships, that wasn't a supported model? The fact that the Supra is significantly more expensive than the 86 is irrelevant. The 86 has proven that there isn't a whole lot of volume for cheap sports cars. If you are going to introduce a lower volume model, you'd better charge enough to have high margins. Toyota is NOT a sports car company. Having two sports cars in their lineup makes absolutely no marketing sense.

These are large corporate entities, not small specialty car makers. Now if you could show me any evidence in terms of advertising/marketing/sales promotions that use the BRZ or 86 as a lead item for their brands, I might change my mind.

Neither of us are a part of Subaru or Toyota senior management, so we don't know for sure. But your arguments are illogical and just make no sense. I wouldn't want you running my company putting out products are are designed to bring me a loss......

Many many many vehicles over the years have been sold at little or no profit in order to reap other benefits. This is a known fact. You try to apply logic to a business that on the service has no logic. You can spew as much theory as you wish it does not change reality.

[bababooey]

all this time i thought this thread would turn to NSFW from post #2 at 8am. who knew the debate to come.

[ToySub1946]

That color was already available though just in Japan, so why not give it to us here in North America.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122250

Am I missing something here ?
Why was this not mentioned immediately after the thread started ?

Appears to me to be the same color as on 2018 Crosstrek as well, which is Made in USA.
And why do they call it Cool Grey Khaki rather than light blue is beyond me....marketing BS must be. The car, to my eye, is certainly light blue.

Hey, let's have tons of new models, as Corvette is doing, just before we ditch the platform. I'm ready for the Mid engined Vette...

[dtbdan]

Originally Posted by rvoll

The improvements for 2018 are extremely minor for the BRZ and 86. And I don't know where you get the idea that sales in Europe are strong. For the first four months of this year in Europe, the BRZ sold 168 cars and the 86 sold 488 cars. The good news for Europe is that the BRZ has never sold a lot of cars. But the U.S. is the big market outside of Japan. So I don't understand your argument....

He said that Europe tanked, you read it wrong, anyways improvements are improvements, I don't know why everyone is always so quick to think the twins are being discontinued it was the same way before the refreshes as well, just because they're not reinventing the car doesn't mean they aren't going to keep producing it and they limited 86 production to 8,600 units last year which they almost hit for sales, they expect the sales they're getting as they may fall each year but it's not like sales were 40,000 at one point, a car doesn't make any more sense at moving 2,000 a month than at 1,000 a month because both are incredibly small when compared to sales of other cars. If they were going to discontinue this generation, they wouldn't have refreshed the cars, since sales from 14 till now have been pretty steady


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