Some autocross fun

[jplake]

Had an opportunity to take my '16 BRZ out today. Car is still 100% stock, and this is the 2nd event I have participated in. As you can tell some additional seat time + a set of nice rubber are in order. Understeer for days!!

Any tips?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS8yx5l3844"]Subaru BRZ - MSCC Autocross - Lake Tech - Sept. 11th, 2016 - YouTube[/ame]

***UPDATE***

Daytona International Speedway:
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sXiBJoGkGSo[/ame]

[Ernest72]

A larger rear swaybar will help. But remember oversteer is fun on a track but can be dangerous on a road. Also setting up your turns by weighting the outside suspension before the turn. Also focus on the turns at a slower speed first and get them all nice and clean. Then on the next run try to go faster.

[Stang70Fastback]

As someone who autocrossed an entire season 100% stock including the tires, allow me to save you the trouble of figuring out what I did halfway through: If you are assertive with your steering inputs, you can eliminate the understeer. Notice I say "assertive," and not "violent" or "jerky." You want to be smooth (especially with these tires) but you can still be smooth and a bit more authoritative when you turn in, and that will get the car to rotate a bit more. Also buy a spray bottle thing (the weed sprayer) and spray your tires down between runs. Primacys do NOT like being hot, and if you don't keep them cool, then the fronts WILL overheat and then you WILL have terrible understeer.

[Stang70Fastback]

Okay, so I actually watched your video, and honestly what you need is a LOT of driver mod, lol. That's fine, you gotta start somewhere, but the understeer you are experiencing is ENTIRELY your fault.

A few things:

1. Look further ahead. From the video it looks like you're playing "connect the dots" with the cones (aka, drawing a straight line from one element to the next.) You shouldn't ever be looking at the next cone. You should be looking 2-3 cones ahead. You can see the cone you are going around in your vision, but you shouldn't be focused on it. You want to draw smooth, arcs between each cone, and sometimes several cones fall into one long arc. You can't do that if you're only looking at the next cone; you can only draw those straight lines. If you do that, you will widen the turns you make, because instead of trying to make a sharp turn around one cone, you will do a more gradual turn from one cone to the next. This will help with the understeer that you are experiencing.) When you walk the course before the event, walk it several times, and try to visualize these lines between elements. "Okay, this turn, that turn, and the next are one big, long arc. I can ignore that middle cone, and just make a big arc between the first and third cone." That kind of stuff.

2. When the front of the car starts to underteer, that's [obviously] a sign that you entered the corner too fast, turned too sharply, or both. Remember the mantra: Slow in; fast out. Always slow down a bit more than you *think* you need to for the sharper turns.

Also, when the car does understeer, a lot of people have a tendency to turn the wheel even more. "WTF, why won't you turn???" *cranks wheel hard over* THAT MAKES THINGS WORSE. If your tires can't handle turning sharply at the speed you're traveling, they certainly won't be able to turn even MORE sharply! You are making things worse by turning the wheel more. You have to train yourself to ease out of the turn. Back off the steering a bit until the car regains grip. Also let off the throttle, which will transfer more weight to the front and gain grip. And then next time you run the course, slow down more for that turn.

[Ganthrithor]

I'm no autox champion, but at a glance here's my take: it looks like you're trying to turn the car with the steering wheel and not the pedals. This probably sounds idiotic (isn't that what the wheel is for?), but in high-performance driving you rely a lot more on the pedals to make the car turn. The steering wheel is only one part of the turning process.

If you carry moderate speed into a corner and don't brake on corner entry, the front end of the car ends up too lightly loaded and the car will understeer instead of rotating into the corner. Accelerate harder between corners, and brake as you approach the next corner-- this puts more of the car's weight on the front tyres and compresses the front suspension, making the front end more responsive. As you begin to turn the steering wheel to turn into the corner, gradually release your brake pressure as lateral g-force begins to build up: if you keep trying to brake hard while also turning the wheel a lot, you'll end up overloading your front tyres and the car will understeer again.

If you get just the right balance-- braking hard in a straight line coming up to the corner, followed by gradually releasing brake pressure as you turn the steering wheel to start the turn, you'll feel the front end will bite into the pavement much more strongly, and you might even feel the back end of the car get light and want to swing around a bit, helping you point the car through the corner toward the exit. This is called trail braking, and it's how you make the car want to turn. If you just sort of coast into the corner and turn the steering wheel, the front end won't grip well and you'll understeer. If you brake too late, holding a lot of brake pressure too far into the corner, you'll overpower the tyres and understeer. If you trail off of the brakes at just the right rate as you increase your steering angle, you'll get a happy car that grips and drives through the corner, or maybe a bit of oversteer-- which can be fun at autox!

You also seem like you're not using all the space available on the course. Remember, the objective is to to turn as little as possible while also not hitting the cones-- you want to take the widest line through the corner that you can. When you come into a hairpin, you want to start all the way on the outside of the course, (almost) clip the apex cone on the inside of the corner at the middle, and then slide all the way back out to the outside of the corner at the exit. If you're skittish and keep your distance from the outside of the corner at the beginning, you need to turn sharper in the middle to avoid hitting cones on the way out. If you start wide, you won't have to turn as sharply, which means you can go a bit faster.

I highly recommend asking an experienced driver to ride along with you on your runs. You'll have a little worse power to weight ratio, but the tips and feedback will more than make up for it and will really accelerate your learning. People at autox are usually really nice and happy to help newcomers with all kinds of things! Don't be afraid to ask!

Most importantly, keep getting out there and having fun! Autox is a great way to improve your driving while having a lot of fun and meeting people. Keep at it!

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

I highly recommend asking an experienced driver to ride along with you on your runs. You'll have a little worse power to weight ratio, but the tips and feedback will more than make up for it and will really accelerate your learning. People at autox are usually really nice and happy to help newcomers with all kinds of things! Don't be afraid to ask.

THIS. There are a LOT of things that we can see in this video that we could try to correct, but honestly, an experienced person AT your next autocross could ride along with you and explain it all much more easily in person

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

THIS. There are a LOT of things that we can see in this video that we could try to correct, but honestly, an experienced person AT your next autocross could ride along with you and explain it all much more easily in person

Also, sometimes advice on driving sounds like it makes sense, but then you get out there at speed and suddenly you think, "Are you sure this is a good idea???"

In these situations, it's important to have someone in the passenger seat just yelling at you, "GAS! GAS! GAS! MORE GAS! BRAKE HARD! HARDER! HARDER!"

Very soon that timidness will go away, but at the beginning it can feel weird or scary to maneuver aggressively. A good co-driver will really help improve your confidence quickly.

[atlbrz]

guys, I don't autocross, but there is lots of good advice in some of these posts. I like to track cars and a lot of these same principles apply to driving on the track. It almost sounds like everything happens more quickly and compressed in autocrossing. Almost sounds inticing.

[bcj]

Originally Posted by atlbrz

inticing.

Enticing. But, yeah.

[jplake]

Thank you to everyone that has provided feedback. A lot of valuable information for me to take away. Much appreciated.

[strat61caster]

Edit: Advice to the OP, seat time > parts when you're starting out. Take the $200-$400 you'd spend on a swaybar or tires or this and that and just go to as many events and learning opportunities you can. And repeats of what's above, the car in stock configuration is predictable and good to learn on.

The one modification I'd suggest is OE camber bolts which will keep you in the stock street classes and maximize negative camber in the front, should be anywhere from -1 to -1.5-ish degrees and will have almost no negative repercussions while adding a bit of front grip (reducing the understeer). Should be <$20 and then a couple hundred bucks for the professional alignment which you'll want to do soon enough anyway. Aftermarket will get you more negative camber (where the parts are unlimited on this car most people are running more than -3 degrees) but will move you out of the stock classes.

Originally Posted by atlbrz

It almost sounds like everything happens more quickly and compressed in autocrossing. Almost sounds inticing.

The other thing is that you only get 3-6 shots at a corner and that's it, better get it right quick. No time to take a 'sighting lap'.

Track days you get to try a corner 15-40+ times in a day, come back in a few weeks and it's still there exactly the same as last time. Sure there's speed to contend with in track days, entering corners in triple digits getting the slip angle right is thrilling, and a feat of mental self control, no doubt about it.

But doing it at the limit the first time you've seen the course at speed with only minor repercussions if you blow it, flying into a corner at 10/10ths not knowing exactly what's next is a different kind of adrenalin.

Then you watch some of the guys with real skill at it, their first time is within half a second of their fastest time and they take home the trophy, it's mind boggling.

[CatDaddysBBQ]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

As someone who autocrossed an entire season 100% stock including the tires, allow me to save you the trouble of figuring out what I did halfway through: If you are assertive with your steering inputs, you can eliminate the understeer. Notice I say "assertive," and not "violent" or "jerky." You want to be smooth (especially with these tires) but you can still be smooth and a bit more authoritative when you turn in, and that will get the car to rotate a bit more. Also buy a spray bottle thing (the weed sprayer) and spray your tires down between runs. Primacys do NOT like being hot, and if you don't keep them cool, then the fronts WILL overheat and then you WILL have terrible understeer.

Me too - autoX for 2 seasons on OEM rubber - and I think i'm better as a result of suffering that long with no grip. Once I got smooth, used the brakes more and got a good fundamental skillset with the OEM setup, I saw I was limited by the tires. If I had upgraded right away, I would've gone faster but I may not have learned proper technique, and my skills would've hit a wall early.

Once I was driving MUCH better on the oem, I then knew I needed to upgrade tires, and then I started another growth year with a stronger car to do the same good driving with.

[Stang70Fastback]

Originally Posted by CatDaddysBBQ

Me too - autoX for 2 seasons on OEM rubber - and I think i'm better as a result of suffering that long with no grip. Once I got smooth, used the brakes more and got a good fundamental skillset with the OEM setup, I saw I was limited by the tires. If I had upgraded right away, I would've gone faster but I may not have learned proper technique, and my skills would've hit a wall early.

Once I was driving MUCH better on the oem, I then knew I needed to upgrade tires, and then I started another growth year with a stronger car to do the same good driving with.

Exactly. The OEM rubber teaches you a LOT. It teaches you to correct all of your mistakes that stickier tires hide. It's easy to understeer on the OEM tires, which teaches you how to properly enter a corner. Sticky tires will grip anyway, and you'll never learn that you can't just fly into a corner at a million MPH.

The stock tires also really teach you the nuances of how the car handles. You learn a lot more about driving on the edge of grip (with much more audible feedback, which is a good learning experience) and you learn a lot more about managing your inputs to not exceed the limits of the tires.

It was the same way with me, at the beginning of the autocross season I was the weak point. Of course, there is always room for improvement, but by the end of the season, the tires were primarily my handicap, so this year I upgraded to proper autocross tires and I'm back to being the weak point!

[jplake]

Attended an SCCA event at the Daytona International Speedway today. Felt a little more confident in myself today. Still plenty of opportunity for improvement, but it's all just going to take time.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sXiBJoGkGSo[/ame]