Just another 450whp Turbo FT86 -- and NOW 530hp

[pgranberg11]

I love this thread. and i need #vittuned. lol all these haters in here. moral of story of boosted motor from n/a... it'll probably pop eventually anyways... a tune can go a long way. sure there may be imperfections in the motor, but you can have a perfectly built motor, no imperfections, period. throw a shit tune in there and it will blow up. on the flip side these things go hand in hand. I still think a tune is probably one of the most important pieces, but that's not what this thread is for to argue what is more important tune vs. mechanical.

like they say you gotta pay to play. if you are scared boosting motors don't do it. If you do boost motor, be prepared for the worst to come.

in for more awesomeness from vit....

[#maverick#]

Originally Posted by Jaden

It appears that there are some quality control issues on the rods. Because of that I would suggest that anyone boosting understand that and know that they may have defective rods and might want a built motor...

Jaden

You also have to remember that forged metal has a grain structure, in some ways similar to wood. In forged parts this grain flows around the contour of the part while in cast or machined parts it doesn’t. castings usually have only randomly distributed grain structure, not real strong, while a well designed forging has a grain structure that flows in such a way as to most efficiently carry the stresses the designer anticipates.

[FA5teryo]

Vit tooned for da win... he kept my motor together for over 40k boosted miles, back to stock now motor is still healthy with over 150k on the clock..

[Jmonty]

As a member of the vittuned club, you can't go wrong

[nickw14]

Originally Posted by Jaden

A rod snapped in half doesn't necessarily mean that it was a weak rod, and more importantly, even if it WAS a weak rod, that doesn't mean that all FA20 rods are weak...or that it wasn't a bad tune and lack of fuel that caused a detonation or OTHER event that broke the rod.

When you have people that break rods on stock cars and you have others that are running for tens of thousands of miles on 400whp builds, you have to ask what is more likely, that there are a few cars that had poor quality control and got defective rods, or that there are a couple of cars that got exceptionally well made rods and HAPPENED to boost those cars with the exceptional rods?

IMO, the most likely scenario is a combination of there being some defective rods out there AND there being some bad or marginal tunes out there.

Any time you're boosting a 12.5 CR engine, tuning becomes precarious.


If every boosted car was bending and breaking rods and stock cars WEREN'T, then you'd have a point. As it stands, I don't see this as being a likely case.

Jaden

Now you're just arguing to argue. You have no leg to stand on when any reputable mechanic, shop, etc will tell you the same thing: FA20 rods are weak. Sure, some engines MAY have blown due to the tune, and I understand that you're trying to tell me that. What you don't understand is that the tuner is not always to blame -- and shouldn't even be the first to blame -- when your engine goes due to rod failure. First look at the track record of stock FA20 rods (both on stock engines and boosted engines), then reformulate your opinion of the situation using logic.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by nickw14

Now you're just arguing to argue. You have no leg to stand on when any reputable mechanic, shop, etc will tell you the same thing: FA20 rods are weak. Sure, some engines MAY have blown due to the tune, and I understand that you're trying to tell me that. What you don't understand is that the tuner is not always to blame -- and shouldn't even be the first to blame -- when your engine goes due to rod failure. First look at the track record of stock FA20 rods (both on stock engines and boosted engines), then reformulate your opinion of the situation using logic.

DON'T even GO there about using logic, because you obviously AREN'T... What about STOCK engine's rods failing while 400WHP engine's rods NOT failing do you NOT understand?

I'm sorry... if rods fail in a 160whp car and don't in a 400whp (same rods, same manufacturing process, same everything) it's not an inherently WEAK rod.

It's a DEFECTIVE rod in the car that blew up.

Jaden

And if a rod fails in a 300whp car, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a defective rod, it could've been a bad tune that caused detonation that then caused the weakest part on the car to fail... the rod. No one is claiming that the rods aren't the weak link on modded FA20s...

[nickw14]

Originally Posted by Jaden

DON'T even GO there about using logic, because you obviously AREN'T... What about STOCK engine's rods failing while 400WHP engine's rods NOT failing do you NOT understand?

I'm sorry... if rods fail in a 160whp car and don't in a 400whp (same rods, same manufacturing process, same everything) it's not an inherently WEAK rod.

It's a DEFECTIVE rod in the car that blew up.

Jaden

And if a rod fails in a 300whp car, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a defective rod, it could've been a bad tune that caused detonation that then caused the weakest part on the car to fail... the rod. No one is claiming that the rods aren't the weak link on modded FA20s...

Lol. No need to go shouting now. The rods are weak, we've established this. Anything more you decide to interject is, well, irrelevant. Now, go read up on these two little things called good luck and bad luck. Good luck is when your 400whp stock internals car runs for 50k miles and blows up. Bad luck is when your 200whp stock internals car runs for 10k miles and blows up. A good point made earlier on was that the driver plays a major role in how long an engine will last. The fact of the matter now is, it's impossible to argue. Yet you are still trying to say that you're right and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by nickw14

Lol. No need to go shouting now. The rods are weak, we've established this. Anything more you decide to interject is, well, irrelevant. Now, go read up on these two little things called good luck and bad luck. Good luck is when your 400whp stock internals car runs for 50k miles and blows up. Bad luck is when your 200whp stock internals car runs for 10k miles and blows up. A good point made earlier on was that the driver plays a major role in how long an engine will last. The fact of the matter now is, it's impossible to argue. Yet you are still trying to say that you're right and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

the five or so cars that failed because of defective rods, does not make the rods inherently weak...

I don't see how you're having trouble following here. Rods being a weak link does not mean they can't regularly handle 300+hp unless they are defective...

You're not seeming to grasp the simple concept that the rods should not EVER fail at stock power levels and if they are, it's a defective rod not a design flaw or weak rod, because if it was a design flaw or weak rod, thousands of stock cars would have failing rods.

The fact that there have been cars at stock power levels that have had rods fail on low mileage supports the idea that there are some defective rods, not that the rods are weak.

I don't give two fucks what BS you can come up with, that won't change what that infers.

Since we can safely assume that there are at least SOME defective rods out there (due to the inference of such from stock cars' rods failing) you can assume that SOME of the boosted and modded cars that have failed, may also have DEFECTIVE rods, but you can't automatically assume that and you sure as SHIT can't assume that all the rods are weak and will fail.

That's about as asinine conclusion as you can come to.

Since many failures have been rods, you can fairly safely assume that the rods are the weak LINK, but NOT that they are inherently WEAK and can't safely support mods.

Especially when you have MANY MANY instances of boosted FA20s lasting tens of thousands of miles on high power without failing...

In fact many of those failures you like to cite, were actually people TRYING to get the engines to fail while testing to see what the limits were.

I have over 85000 miles on my car 72000 of which I've put on it myself in less than two years. I drive the ever loving SHIT out of my car and most of those miles were on E85.

No rod failures here...

I've had 300+ mile road trips that I've averaged 101mph, biggest problem I've had was a spark plug failure... I guess I'm just lucky...

Jaden


p.s. it's not yelling when you sparingly use caps, it's emphasizing...

[nickw14]

Originally Posted by Jaden

the five or so cars that failed because of defective rods, does not make the rods inherently weak...

I don't see how you're having trouble following here. Rods being a weak link does not mean they can't regularly handle 300+hp unless they are defective...

You're not seeming to grasp the simple concept that the rods should not EVER fail at stock power levels and if they are, it's a defective rod not a design flaw or weak rod.

The fact that there have been cars at stock power levels that have had rods fail on low mileage supports the idea that there are some defective rods, not that the rods are weak.

I don't give two fucks what BS you can come up with, that won't change what that infers.

Since we can safely assume that there are at least SOME defective rods out there (due to the inference of such from stock cars' rods failing) you can assume that SOME of the boosted and modded cars that have failed, may also have DEFECTIVE rods, but you can't automatically assume that and you sure as SHIT can't assume that all the rods are weak and will fail.

That's about as asinine conclusion as you can come to.

Since many failures have been rods, you can fairly safely assume that the rods are the weak LINK, but NOT that they are inherently WEAK and can't safely support mods.

Especially when you have MANY MANY instances of boosted FA20s lasting tens of thousands of miles on high power without failing...

In fact many of those failures you like to cite, were actually people TRYING to get the engines to fail while testing to see what the limits were.

I have over 85000 miles on my car 72000 of which I've put on it myself in less than two years. I drive the ever loving SHIT out of my car and most of those miles were on E85.

No rod failures here...

I've had 300 mile road trips that I've averaged 101mph, biggest problem I've had was a spark plug failure...

Jaden

You don't get out much, eh? I can assure you that there are more than 5 cars that have suffered from a broken or bent rod(s). You seem set in your ways, so I'll be on my way. But remember there are other variables (many other variables) that go into the making of an engine failure than just a tune, just a rod, etc. Of course, you will probably disagree with me on that too.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by nickw14

You don't get out much, eh? I can assure you that there are more than 5 cars that have suffered from a broken or bent rod(s). You seem set in your ways, so I'll be on my way. But remember there are other variables (many other variables) that go into the making of an engine failure than just a tune, just a rod, etc. Of course, you will probably disagree with me on that too.

I know there are more than 5 engine failures...lol...no, on that last point, we can ABSOLUTELY agree...lol... I wasn't the one trying to claim one point of failure on all engines...lol

Jaden

[FRS Justin]

Their is another point to be made about rod failures in the 86 platform. That supports both of your guys points that should be mentioned..
We talked about the drivers being a factor now lets talk about the assembly of the engine or quality control of the parts installed in the engine....Both of these have a big factor in rod failure... Have one rod that's to tight or loose on clearances and the life of the engine goes way down....

BUT in closing, everyone who reads this should understand that the FA20 in the 86 wasn't designed for boosted applications from the factory. That's why the WRX rod is a heavier duty rod even though the compression is almost 2 points less. Even Subaru knew not to trust the N/A version of this rod in a low boost environment and built a heavier duty rod for the extra hp the stock WRX makes...

When you push outside the design factor you take a risk. Some people get away with it some get bit.....

[BRZoomTX]

Stock fa20 rods were not designed for boost as stated above. That alone is enough reason to consider them weak, as they are not designed for a forced induction application. By design, they are weak.

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

BUT in closing, everyone who reads this should understand that the FA20 in the 86 wasn't designed for boosted applications from the factory. That's why the WRX rod is a heavier duty rod even though the compression is almost 2 points less. Even Subaru knew not to trust the N/A version of this rod in a low boost environment and built a heavier duty rod for the extra hp the stock WRX makes...

The WRX rods weren't revised for the HP they make, cause those motors make shit HP from the factory. The torque they make though... and how soon it comes in... yeah that becomes an issue on the N/A FA20 rods.

This is our stock 16 WRX with a quick street tune I slapped on it after putting 5 gallons of E85 into the tank and filling up the rest with 92 (So e35-e40 blend). If this is the torque the things make with just a small fuel change... wait til I get the stack of parts on it that we have sitting on the shelf..



EG, if you put this tiny of a turbo on our FA20 motor and make 300wtq @ 2500 rpm, you'll probably snap a rod first pull.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by VitViper

The WRX rods weren't revised for the HP they make, cause those motors make shit HP from the factory. The torque they make though... and how soon it comes in... yeah that becomes an issue on the N/A FA20 rods.

This is our stock 16 WRX with a quick street tune I slapped on it after putting 5 gallons of E85 into the tank and filling up the rest with 92 (So e35-e40 blend). If this is the torque the things make with just a small fuel change... wait til I get the stack of parts on it that we have sitting on the shelf..



EG, if you put this tiny of a turbo on our FA20 motor and make 300wtq @ 2500 rpm, you'll probably snap a rod first pull.

You are correct I should have said torque. I just used hp as a generic term which is a bad practice I need to stop.

Nice gain by the way