So how many have to die before they...

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Secondly, my other point still stands that NO AMOUNT OF DRIVER EDUCATION WILL ELIMINATE INCIDENTS. It's not just the wrong argument, it's also not a good one. Nobody is suggesting that incidents will ever be eliminated, not in this hobby. I've been agreeing with 2 points you've been making too: speed limits aren't the solution and education needs to improve but neither address the issue.


If you call me and others "uneducated" because we think fewer people should have to die then so be it. I can live with that.

It looks like you're saying that the risk of death or catastrophic vehicle damage is drawing people to HPDEs?! I'm regurgitating a topic about how HPDEs are becoming unnecessarily dangerous for both the driver and the instructor but if you are saying it's that danger that's drawing the crowd then the problem is greater that I suspect. It seems this way since you're vigilantly defending the status quo.

Forgive me if I thought your idea was imposing speed limits, as your original post on this thread made it seem the case.

Again, I'll continue to state there is always room for improvement, but your statement that HPDEs are "becoming" unnecessarily dangerous is unfounded, as there simply isn't the data to support it. I'll stick with what the data shows.

If you don't think the ability to drive your car at a high speed (straights AND cornering speed), at the limit, on a racetrack, in a controlled environment, doesn't draw drivers in to HPDE, you are kidding yourself.

You are correct, no amount of anything will eliminate incidents. If ELIMINATING incidents is one's purpose, then you'll just have to close down all race tracks. Oh wait, that means we'll be stuck to driving on the highways, where were 10x more likely to get killed....

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Head and Neck restraints are mandatory in all SCCA and NASA sanctioned racing events.

Yes, for racing, but not for HPDE....

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by smbstyle

If you don't think the ability to drive your car at a high speed (straights AND cornering speed), at the limit, on a racetrack, in a controlled environment, doesn't draw drivers in to HPDE, you are kidding yourself.

It's the wrong reason but you're right. I'm glad you're not saying it's the risk of death that's attracting them. But the "I just want to see how fast my car can go" crowd doesn't belong at the track, they belong at the salt flats.

To one fellow who was "just there to see how fast his GT3 could go", I've had to say: "I have bad news, that's not what we're here doing today, I'm afraid you've come to the wrong place. If you want to learn and take instruction on how to drive and correctly pilot the car then we can help." He truly didn't give a shit about driving, like at all. I'm happy to be part of organizations that turn those folks away but I've witnessed others that don't and I don't like that some of them are deliberately appealing to that personality.

[Rio]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Agreed. But I do have to say (having a corporate instructional designer in the family) that they think 'more instruction' is the answer to most things.





I do kind of feel like I'm in the twilight zone a bit. When I first started doing lapping events 15 years ago, having a major wreck seemed preposterous because we're out here learning and there was a huge emphasis on keeping things slow, keeping things safe and "nobody is competing". The concept of a driver death at one of these things wasn't even a thought. I was driving "too hard" at one event and that was the end of my day, I was sent home. When I showed up again with a renewed adherence to their safety policies I also had a roll bar.

But now the organizations are desperate for money and entries. The barriers to entry haven't gotten worse, in fact it is the opposite. The prices have come down the rules are relaxed and now the organization that I was originally sent home from is having to cancel days because they're losing business to other orgs that are more "open".

smbstyle can say I'm regurgitating and I'd immediately stand up and say, "busted" if I hadn't witness all this myself, personally over the last decade or so.

So first of all, OMG, I had one of those instructional designers!

You nailed it. EFFECTIVE learning is the key! I saw it happen at Track Night. The instruction for Novices is way laxed!

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Rio

I saw it happen at Track Night. The instruction for Novices is way laxed!

I haven't been to one these but they seem to be getting A LOT of attention from the "pro-safety" crowd and not for the right reasons. What's the specifics?

[Locust]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I haven't been to one these but they seem to be getting A LOT of attention from the "pro-safety" crowd and not for the right reasons. What's the specifics?

Track Night in America gets a lot of new drivers and didn't launch with a clearly defined plan for instructors. Thus, problems.

[smbstyle]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I haven't been to one these but they seem to be getting A LOT of attention from the "pro-safety" crowd and not for the right reasons. What's the specifics?

Not really familiar with how their program runs, but this is a bit troubling to me.... I'm shocked, especially being a SCCA program:

on their FAQ page:

Will I have an instructor?
Not in the car with you. However, especially in the novice group, you will have driving instructors coaching you and helping you along the way. They will be glad to give you input on what they see, and where you can improve. They will not, however, be in the car with you. You may ask an intermediate or advanced participant to ride along in your car with you to help learn the track.

...which is right below....

Do I need to have track experience?
Not at all. If you’ve always wanted to drive on a racetrack and didn’t know how, where or when, Track Night is absolutely for you! You can participate in either the Starting Line Track School or the Novice Experience to get your start and some know-how. Check out “ways to play” to learn more.

[OkieSnuffBox]

So OP, does this mean you would be wholly against sport bike track days considering how much faster they go and the lack of a safety cell? Or ability to have an instructor?

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

So OP, does this mean you would be wholly against sport bike track days considering how much faster they go and the lack of a safety cell? Or ability to have an instructor?

Nope. It's a very different thing entirely with a completely different set of expectations as well as a different acceptance of risk both on and off the track due to the nature of the vehicle.


However... anything's possible.

[jmimac351]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Today's topic:

Prominent people are now talking about speed limits at race tracks..

I think I'm with the drag strips on this one. Cars below a certain power level or even a power:weight ratio, no extra safety equipment needed, above that ratio a roll bar and at some point above that, a cage.

Regardless of the direction, the result will be fewer entries, it just will. The speed limit creates a safety constraint without requiring people to modify their street car for safety but the safety requirements actually make the car safer in an incident on track. But playing at a racetrack is expensive but perhaps where safety is concerned it's not expensive enough.

So, how many have to die?

Sorry, I'm trying to keep up with this discussion as it's really interesting.

Can you clarify your comments above? They read to me like you think a Speed Limit on a race track the way to go but maybe I've missed some other comment.

Are you saying a Speed Limit isn't what you support but are just saying this is what other people support and you don't have an opinion about it either way?

If you aren't in favor of Speed Limits, why are you saying you're "with the drag strips" on a power to weight ratio criteria?

Again... sorry, I have The Dumb.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I'm in favor of not dying as an instructor

I think we're coming nearer to a more universal truth through this debate which is awesome. Do you agree that the recent on track incidents have more to do with unsafe drivers/conditions than unsafe cars?

Like you said it's easier to save a car doing 60 than it is while doing 90. If a guy shows up in a shiny new Lamborghini or Ferrari or GTR but never passes 100 mph and drives in a well mannered fashion learning and improving his skills, he probably doesn't need a roll cage. Meanwhile a knucklehead could show up in a stock 1.6L NA Miata and try flying into the first corner after the big straight at 100 mph on cold tires. I know which car I'd want a rollcage in if I was stuck riding shotgun without an escape route and it isn't the +500 hp monster.

Instructors and organizers need to shut down any safety risks immediately with no fear of kicking out troublemakers. It's going to take a concentrated effort to tighten up the ship of the more lax groups, and like I mentioned earlier, I think a sort of certification/regulatory group funded by all HPDE's can work. And the mechanism for the non-compliant is simple, get the insurance companies on board.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Healthy, debate is healthy.

Why do sky divers fold their chutes in a certain way, or wear altimeters or have to have training?

Why do ski resorts have designated areas for different skill levels, roped off zones, perform preventative avalanche blasting and post signs everywhere about how the downhill person has the right of way?

Why does the guy driving to work have to get a license, obey laws, adhere to speed limits and drive a car with regulated safety standards?

While all these acts inherently posses risk, there are steps that are taken to mitigate it without removing it. In many cases it's also to mitigate the risk a person could inflict on another person and that sentiment also applies to a track day.

I get all that. As enthusiasts, we owe it to ourselves to consider these issues seriously. However, I still question whether or not the injury/mortality rate is any higher than other potentially lethal activities. I'm guessing, most of us have dabbled in other exciting hobbies. It takes a special kind of mindset.

Originally Posted by smbstyle

Call me crazy but I'd rather smack a wall at 90 mph in a 2015 GTR than at 60 mph in a 60s Corvette.

Neither of those appeal to me. May I have a third choice?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Neither of those appeal to me. May I have a third choice?

Drive within your limits, make sure your car is mechanically sound and don't hit a wall.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Drive within your limits, make sure your car is mechanically sound and don't hit a wall.

Oh, such youthful optimism. I remember those days.