PLM Long Tube Header

[nickw14]

Originally Posted by Cross

It's a sticky residue on all the flanges that's all.

I to was worried about heat but I have a good amount of header wrap so I'm going to use that.

I think they're are some smaller things they could have made cleaner in the flanges but other than that they look fine to me compared to the other brands I have had in my possession. (Agency Power, OFH, Borla)

Well in that case these seem like a great alternative for those of us who don't want to spend $1200 on header.

As the previous post said: what they did was unethical but as far as build quality goes...

[Canehda]

Originally Posted by JOSI

Nope.. Subpar materials... leaks/warping... JUNK.

And your basis for this is....?

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Canehda

And your basis for this is....?

The replica gods told him!

[Cross]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Is it just the picture, or is the flange surface as rough as it looks here??

Sorry I missed your question, they are not baby smooth but to be honest none of the header flanges I have had even my Kook's for LS Cars have been baby smooth they felt normal but I will double check as I was distracted by finding they had that sticky residue.

As for the quality yeah I think assumptions based off not even having a set mean about as much as opinions on if one turbo kit is better than another from someone who has never run either.

Honestly I think at this point Nameless has two options, they have a better product and they know it, that does not mean this is a bad product it's just one where they are taking advantage of work already done.
If Nameless accepts they don't always get development costs back 100% (Although they should have done well with the headers they sold so far) and prices there headers at 800 they would have no problem selling them to members constantly. It would be a great price point for a better product. Or they can ignore it and let the market decide.

I have tried not to be to critical but flat out V8 LS headers have many options cheap to expensive and the differences are not always much but most every LS guy says Kook's are the best. A set (aka 2 Headers that are bigger in all respects) are less than the 1200 for one Nameless. That hurts and that is what would hold me back from buying them normally but as I said I believe they make a great product I have seen the exhaust systems I just can't stomach that cost for what I get when I work with so many other's.

But I am not looking to turn this into a finger pointing bs thread. I bought a set and I am trying them out. For the price I am happy with them compared to others for this platform I have tried.
I have my opinion on how Nameless could take the market but that's my opinion and nothing more. I do wish both groups luck at this point as I have no reason to do otherwise.

Thanks.

[burdickjp]

The PLM is the monetary rip-off, not the Nameless. They're charging you $700 when they've got very little overhead.

Nameless has man-hours in R&D that they're paying for, and are supporting the community.
Support the businesses which support the community.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

The PLM is the monetary rip-off, not the Nameless. They're charging you $700 when they've got very little overhead.

Nameless has man-hours in R&D that they're paying for, and are supporting the community.
Support the businesses which support the community.

Not sure what prices you are referring to but 550 vs 1200 are the correct values.

R&D is part of business and like I said they made some of it if not all back already. After that the price should reflect the market and as I said in my opinion at 800 they could really steal the market with there great product. But this is my opinion.

There is not a single market that doesn't deal with this, why would it be any different here?

[Shady195]

As time goes on, there will be more parts and they will become cheaper.

It's still a "new" platform and a popular one at that. As time goes on and the market becomes more and more saturated prices will come down. Not speaking of nameless specifically.

However its happened over the years to many different cars. First few years companies squeeze all they can, more and more shit gets developed or more knock offs come out and companies start dropping their prices.

[Canehda]

I agree its shitty for a company to make a copy of a product but tbh i doubt they are stealing sales from Nameless... I think if someone is actually ready to buy a 1200$ header they will probably not go near a $600 header... I doubt they will lose sales because of this header, Its more of a pride/morals thing...

[wparsons]

Most of the high quality EL header options are priced right around where the nameless is, so I don't think they're out to lunch at all based on the current economy surrounding these cars.

[zooki]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Most of the high quality EL header options are priced right around where the nameless is, so I don't think they're out to lunch at all based on the current economy surrounding these cars.

Ya know, this is the part I've never really understood about this car. Honestly, it's a cheap little sports car, but people seem to think its a priceless work of rolling art. Intakes which are little more than a cone filter on the end of a piece of muffler pipe for $300? And people arguing endlessly about 2-3 HP difference @7000 RPM? Please.
I wish some body made a mild steel header for it for about $200. I'd be all over that. It would probably last longer than the vast majority of us will keep these cars. I had a set of regular mild steel headers on my '93 Mustang and I sold the car with 193,000 miles on it and they were fine. A little surface rust, but that's it. Anyway, I guess I come from a gearhead background where the results are more important than the "fashion show". Not to say there aren't quality products out there, but a lot of them are way overpriced because they appeal to the "keeping up with the Jones'" mentality I seem to see more of in the import crowd than the gear head crowd. That's just my personal observation, of course. Anyway, flame away if you'd like. It's just the way I see things from being in the car culture for 30+ years now.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Maybe more like a dude buys your quality detailed painting of a mountain in Switzerland that you had to travel to see and took multiple sittings to get the light right, done with fine oil paints, precise brush work on stretched canvas, copies it with cheap acrylic paint on ordinary paper with sloppy brush strokes and sells it for half price using your original as advertising...

Judging by the pics, this also isn't a fair assumption as the knock off looks quite well made...


Regardless, I'd like to see a side by side comparison of the headers and someone figure out what the materials are on them to really compare.


Been through this kind of rodeo before in the Supra community, and the guy that started the divorced down pipes stopped making them because of the knock offs of his product from China. His prices kept going up and the Chinese product was made out of stainless where his was mild steel.


Let's be honest here, there's a limited space for this header to be and it has to be attached at both ends in the same place all the others are, so there are only going to be so many permutations of these headers. It's eventually going to lead to multiple headers looking nearly identical (though in this case it sure looks like a direct copy given where the welded joints are for the bends).

[VerusEric]

I'm willing to bet the material costs for nameless' header is much more then what a lot of you are thinking. To buy genuine United States based material, and parts, is not cheap. Tack on a welder who doesn't get paid $5 a day, it's pretty easy to see we're dealing with a U.S. built product vs. something overseas in my opinion.

I'm looking at doing a one off custom header just to try my shot at one and because I enjoy doing this type of thing. Cost of materials alone, without welding or my engineering time, will be around $700. Yes this is a one off but still.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Judging by the pics, this also isn't a fair assumption as the knock off looks quite well made...


Regardless, I'd like to see a side by side comparison of the headers and someone figure out what the materials are on them to really compare.


Been through this kind of rodeo before in the Supra community, and the guy that started the divorced down pipes stopped making them because of the knock offs of his product from China. His prices kept going up and the Chinese product was made out of stainless where his was mild steel.


Let's be honest here, there's a limited space for this header to be and it has to be attached at both ends in the same place all the others are, so there are only going to be so many permutations of these headers. It's eventually going to lead to multiple headers looking nearly identical (though in this case it sure looks like a direct copy given where the welded joints are for the bends).

It's funny because Randy's work was a rare example of the Chinese knock offs being superior in material quality as well as workmanship. But even that doesn't make it right.

Supporting these assholes diminishes innovative products in the community by removing incentive to bust your balls and take risks.

Despite mild steel and ugly welds Randy invested in an idea that wasn't being done. It cost him (well his dad) money. It required following through and testing and idea.

Nameless was one company that took an approach of not simply 'it fits and it makes gains', but experimented with tuning the power band through runner lengths, rather than bloating their dyno sheets with 'E85 + header' numbers.

These Private Label shitheads were more than capable of jigging up the stock manifold, making it out of tubes, a nice merge collector and no cat. It would've probably made power. And been like every other $500 header where they would compete against other bottom feeders. So why the fuck did they copy Nameless? Because of the knowledge and testing they cane up with. That's the bullshit part. Making a header that outperforms stock is no big deal, but they felt the need to rip off one that had a specific power band and fitment that they couldn't do on their own.

The problem that arises is that why the fuck would Nameless work on anything new if shitheads 'respect' them but buy from a straight up competing knock off? There is room for improvement in all current header designs. Termination boxes, long primary short secondary tri-y, acoustic branches, tapered cross sections, headers that are more specifically application tuned, synching exhaust acoustics to intake manifold runner designs...

But these require experiments and testing and prototypes and time... All of which takes time. These aren't your daddy's turbo exhausts.

Without being able to gain from that, no one will do it. We'll end up with a homogeneous selection of identical function designs differentiated only by price, weld quality and material. With buyers focusing on price, they drive the market to commodity priced shit or retardedly expensive one-offs.



TLR,

Fuck knock offs.


(This is a general rant, Poodles. Not really all directed at you.)

[Jyn]

You guys are wasting your breath. Those people who justify buying knock offs willfully choose ignorance to justify their decision.