2015 86CUP rules discussion - What changes do you want and what can we improve?

[THEmailman]

Since this is based on track events, I would see it as unnecessary and detrimental to align classes with an autocross series as they (at least in my mind) are very different types of driving. While I understand that many people do both and that the SCCA might try to do so between their respective series, this is not that case. As I read the rules, it looks like they were drawn from years of track racing experience and somewhat resemble NASA rules/structure.

While it would be nice if the rules allowed for you to stay in certain classes between this series and say, NASA TTD, it should not be a guiding principal. Keep in mind that these rules are written with just the 86 in mind, whereas larger sanctioning bodies have to account for tens, if not hundreds of types and makes of vehicles and what will keep the playing field as level as possible.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by THEmailman

Since this is based on track events, I would see it as unnecessary and detrimental to align classes with an autocross series as they (at least in my mind) are very different types of driving. While I understand that many people do both and that the SCCA might try to do so between their respective series, this is not that case. As I read the rules, it looks like they were drawn from years of track racing experience and somewhat resemble NASA rules/structure.

While it would be nice if the rules allowed for you to stay in certain classes between this series and say, NASA TTD, it should not be a guiding principal. Keep in mind that these rules are written with just the 86 in mind, whereas larger sanctioning bodies have to account for tens, if not hundreds of types and makes of vehicles and what will keep the playing field as level as possible.

I would generally agree with this. If you wanted to align with SCCA rules I think you would be talking more about STU, EP or T4 rules (minus safety gear additions).

As an aside on the rule complexity though, here is the rule book: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...%20October.pdf

[Kido1986]

I was looking at it from SCCA Solo (including the Time Trials program) perspective as this is a one make series essentially. This would attract a great number I feel. I can't say it comes completely unbiased but I have tried to separate my personal side out of it as much as possible.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

This would attract a great number [of participants] I feel.

Excellent point, as this is the principal purpose of any set of rules.

[raul]

Originally Posted by THEmailman

Since this is based on track events, I would see it as unnecessary and detrimental to align classes with an autocross series as they (at least in my mind) are very different types of driving. While I understand that many people do both and that the SCCA might try to do so between their respective series, this is not that case. As I read the rules, it looks like they were drawn from years of track racing experience and somewhat resemble NASA rules/structure.

While it would be nice if the rules allowed for you to stay in certain classes between this series and say, NASA TTD, it should not be a guiding principal. Keep in mind that these rules are written with just the 86 in mind, whereas larger sanctioning bodies have to account for tens, if not hundreds of types and makes of vehicles and what will keep the playing field as level as possible.

While I generally agree, we have plenty of multi-discipline drivers such as myself that would love for the rules to align somewhat simply to drive attendance to the 86 CUP. Attendance is the key to success, but attendance is only gained by having a good balance between price and balanced rules, along with a friendly staff and great competition.

[raul]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

I dont run there, speaking from someone trying to do what I can to help Raul out for the south east but:

Camber plates should take points. They are definitely a speed advantage in cornering. Seems excessive part to be free in 'stock' class.

Also a question. This may be covered but it isn't clear to me. Shocks (Konis), on stock springs. Does that take points? Trying to do whatever's possible to fit my SCCA Stock/Street classed car into this Stock category. Outside of SCCA cars, you won't see many stock spring cars without stock dampers.

Seconded on camber plates. Also, E85 should have a higher point value assigned. Also, I don't believe Final Drive adjustment should be free. It does offer a performance advantage, even if it's situational.

[THEmailman]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

I was looking at it from SCCA Solo (including the Time Trials program) perspective as this is a one make series essentially. This would attract a great number I feel. I can't say it comes completely unbiased but I have tried to separate my personal side out of it as much as possible.

Originally Posted by dradernh

Excellent point, as this is the principal purpose of any set of rules.

Originally Posted by raul

While I generally agree, we have plenty of multi-discipline drivers such as myself that would love for the rules to align somewhat simply to drive attendance to the 86 CUP. Attendance is the key to success, but attendance is only gained by having a good balance between price and balanced rules, along with a friendly staff and great competition.

I disagree with this statement (about rules driving attendance). While obviously getting attendance is critical to growing and maintaining a series, rules serve to set a standard for competition and make as level of a field as possible, with the only large dynamic being driver skill. Other series (professional and amateur) with multiple makes do not apply to this case as the same basic fundamentals of the car are the same, it is your driving and modification route that create success. Out of some of the major sanctioning bodies, only the SCCA makes a reference to getting people out to drive, the rest mention providing the playing field for which to provide fair competition.

As an experiment in the current points system, my car (mods listed in my signature) would be a -0.50 and in the Stock Class. If you put me on lower TW tires (i.e. RS3), I would be at 0.50 and still in the Stock Class. Compared to C Street, you guys get to have some nicer suspension bits, but cannot maximize its potential with an alignment whereas I choose to forego the fancy suspension in favor of an alignment (assuming we are on 220+ TW tires, otherwise you're up a class). Two different ways of compensating for the vertical load and lateral force transferred to the tires; which one works better is what competition is all about.

However, if I were to do the mods I plan on doing at some point for NASA TTD rules, I suddenly bump up to to the Modified Class.

Most of this is all secondhand on my part as I have never participated in the 86 Cup, nor do I know how people with certain mods did in comparison to others with different mods, but in the same class. My interest is in hopefully working with @raul in the future to help expand his vision for a Southeast 86 Cup.

One suggestion I could see is a more even gradation/breakdown of the suspension mods, to allow for non-adjustable shocks, 2-way, 3-way, 4-way, external reservoirs connected to the shock body, remote external reservoirs etc....In most other categories you progressively added in 0.125 or 0.25 increments but the suspension piece went in full 0.50 increments.

[raul]

Originally Posted by THEmailman

I disagree with this statement (about rules driving attendance). While obviously getting attendance is critical to growing and maintaining a series, rules serve to set a standard for competition and make as level of a field as possible, with the only large dynamic being driver skill. Other series (professional and amateur) with multiple makes do not apply to this case as the same basic fundamentals of the car are the same, it is your driving and modification route that create success. Out of some of the major sanctioning bodies, only the SCCA makes a reference to getting people out to drive, the rest mention providing the playing field for which to provide fair competition.

As an experiment in the current points system, my car (mods listed in my signature) would be a -0.50 and in the Stock Class. If you put me on lower TW tires (i.e. RS3), I would be at 0.50 and still in the Stock Class. Compared to C Street, you guys get to have some nicer suspension bits, but cannot maximize its potential with an alignment whereas I choose to forego the fancy suspension in favor of an alignment (assuming we are on 220+ TW tires, otherwise you're up a class). Two different ways of compensating for the vertical load and lateral force transferred to the tires; which one works better is what competition is all about.

However, if I were to do the mods I plan on doing at some point for NASA TTD rules, I suddenly bump up to to the Modified Class.

Most of this is all secondhand on my part as I have never participated in the 86 Cup, nor do I know how people with certain mods did in comparison to others with different mods, but in the same class. My interest is in hopefully working with @raul in the future to help expand his vision for a Southeast 86 Cup.

One suggestion I could see is a more even gradation/breakdown of the suspension mods, to allow for non-adjustable shocks, 2-way, 3-way, 4-way, external reservoirs connected to the shock body, remote external reservoirs etc....In most other categories you progressively added in 0.125 or 0.25 increments but the suspension piece went in full 0.50 increments.

I can see the point you're making, and it's precisely why making fair rules is always a challenge. I've definitely spent hours going over the rules and refining the rules as much as possible (still looking at them tonight). And running them by experienced officials and other experienced people I've met. So far they've had fantastic feedback. Many people have been extremely kind in offering their help with anything I need, and the host club is extremely receptive to the idea, so I hope within a few short weeks we have the date for the first event.

[donutfilling]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So you're asking to swap a $40 mod (camber bolts), $600 mod (rear LCA) and $600 mod (camber plate) for $800 (tires), $200 (sway), $1000 (wheels)?

Why spend more money for a slower car with worst wear and tear?

The tires were already allowed... 140TW 215 tire didnt add points last year and im just saying we continue to allow it. Also I don't know which 215 street tire would cost $800.

Sways also were already allowed in the previous rule set. Instead of 2 sets which would be double we would not just allow 1 set.

Lastly wheels were already allowed in last years stock class and I believe most people would just run the stock wheels since we can't go wider anyways.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by donutfilling

The tires were already allowed... 140TW 215 tire didnt add points last year and im just saying we continue to allow it. Also I don't know which 215 street tire would cost $800.

Sways also were already allowed in the previous rule set. Instead of 2 sets which would be double we would not just allow 1 set.

Lastly wheels were already allowed in last years stock class and I believe most people would just run the stock wheels since we can't go wider anyways.

I am being a little bit of a smart ass with this, but here are some 160TW tires that are rather pricey: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....omCompare1=yes

AD08Rs (much more realistic though 180TW) would be right under 800 for 4 in 215/45R17

[donutfilling]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I am being a little bit of a smart ass with this, but here are some 160TW tires that are rather pricey: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....omCompare1=yes

AD08Rs (much more realistic though 180TW) would be right under 800 for 4 in 215/45R17

No ones going to run those all seasons to be competitive lol. The ad08R are right under 800 yes but the most common tires come out around 600. Star specs, rivals, re11a all around 600. Rs3 being most popular is cheaper. Negardless of this the tires were allowed under the old rules anyways.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by donutfilling

The tires were already allowed... 140TW 215 tire didnt add points last year and im just saying we continue to allow it. Also I don't know which 215 street tire would cost $800.

Sways also were already allowed in the previous rule set. Instead of 2 sets which would be double we would not just allow 1 set.

Lastly wheels were already allowed in last years stock class and I believe most people would just run the stock wheels since we can't go wider anyways.

Anyone intending to run stock class with tires, is specifically prepping a car, which is exactly what we DON'T want. "built to the max" cars discourage signups.

Originally Posted by donutfilling

it'd be nice to have stock class align with stock/street for SCCA. That is pretty much stock car, not even camber bolts allowed. Allowed mods there are 140 TW tires, 1 sway bar change, and +1'' diameter wheels. basically 18x7 or 17x7 allowed. So that basically sounds like 0 points and no allowance for camber bolts, top hats, LCAs, or anything spherical.

This isn't autocross, and quite frankly, we're not trying to make every make and model competitive with each other, so there's no need for generic rulesets like that.

[bkblitzed]

Are the bbk 0 points gonna stay the same?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by bkblitzed

Are the bbk 0 points gonna stay the same?

I'm leaning no, with a stratified table for different sizes.

Remember, this is a community effort!