How fast is the GT86 on track?

[atledreier]

In close to stock form it should easily do sub 9 minutes BtG on the 'Ring. That's decent fast. The car never felt really slow when driven hard, even on the superfast ring. Only spot I felt I needed more power was up from Ex-muhle, but that steep grade is over in a few seconds. I did a 9:17 in blistering heat with a passenger, and I'm no Ring expert by a long shot.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

ASM S2000 is 335hp. Griffon is probably around 230hp give or take.

305, but it doesn't take away from the achievement any. We could say the S2000 is a roadster, while the GT86 is a coupe.

Ultimately all that matters is the result, and the GT86 will start pushing that boundary. It'll always be hurting in the HP department, but hopefully this will get ASM to start running the car again.

I'd love to see Arvou and J's get back into the mix too.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

305

335 based on the latest revision supposedly on 2.4L.


http://wn.com/asm_honda_s2000


What's the fucking problem with the HP? Tuning the D4S that much of a bitch?? A purpose built Cosworth EJ25 should be able to top 300+hp on Jap 98 without issue.


Seriously, why is there such a lack of head and intake flow data on this g'damn forum? People bitch about the power all day but noone seems to be doing anything about it except mild incremental bling tweaks here and there. Ferrea up and vanished. Somebody blueprint this thing already and publish the data ffs.

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

The two are completely different things and have nothing to do with each other.


I wish people would stop equivocating adding power to reducing weight.

I understand, but when it comes to maximizing performance and/or attaining a target power to weight ratio, they are most definitely related.

Also, you need to consider the context if the original msg I was replying to ...

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by Sleepless

I understand, but when it comes to maximizing performance and/or attaining a target power to weight ratio, they are most definitely related.

For performance, everything is related including the weather and hangovers. At least you realize one is not a replacement for the other, many don't.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

For performance, everything is related including the weather and hangovers.

As in, alcohol-related hangovers? Or front and rear overhang and approach angles?

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

As in, alcohol-related hangovers? Or front and rear overhang and approach angles?

Yes. ;P

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

335 based on the latest revision supposedly on 2.4L.


http://wn.com/asm_honda_s2000


What's the fucking problem with the HP? Tuning the D4S that much of a bitch?? A purpose built Cosworth EJ25 should be able to top 300+hp on Jap 98 without issue.


Seriously, why is there such a lack of head and intake flow data on this g'damn forum? People bitch about the power all day but noone seems to be doing anything about it except mild incremental bling tweaks here and there. Ferrea up and vanished. Somebody blueprint this thing already and publish the data ffs.

We're discussing NA RWD cars.

When's the last time you saw a EJ pushing 300+ NA?

The work has already been done, but with the amount of our data thats been ripped off the past few years, we won't be publishing anything that we put that much R&D into, particularly when the parts are not readily available.

That being said, nobody makes NA engines like Honda, even when massaged by the aftermarket.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We're discussing NA RWD cars.

When's the last time you saw a EJ pushing 300+ NA?

The work has already been done, but with the amount of our data thats been ripped off the past few years, we won't be publishing anything that we put that much R&D into, particularly when the parts are not readily available.

That being said, nobody makes NA engines like Honda, even when massaged by the aftermarket.

Yes we are. Most Subie folk are all about snails, we know this. NA hasn't been the focus of the company or it's users for a long while. I only bring the EJ up as what is possible given the right fuel, right blueprinting and tuning. A boxer engine isn't some mysterious black hole where horsepower just vanishes as Porsche can easily confirm. I know for a fact it wouldn't be difficult for Cosworth to get 300hp out of an EJ. Expensive yes, difficult no. Hence why snails everywhere rather than NA Subies, more torque for much less money.


Point is, you mentioned the FA20 will always be weak on hp. I was asking why? I can formulate a myriad of guesses but it would be nice to hear facts from people with actual data instead. If you or someone can answer without giving away anything that'd be great. I honestly don't see the issue with letting the community know what the cock block is on the FA20. Is it really that magical compared to any other internal combustion engine?


I obviously don't want you guys or anyone else to work for free. I'm just quite surprised about the lack of transparency (hard data) with the FA20 on this forum compared to the B16 and K20 on Honda forums. Maybe 3 years is too soon and we need the 86 to turn into a discontinued beater before people feel really comfortable delving into the thing. Maybe part of the problem too is all the people willing to pay $500 for a piece of ABS that might make 1-2hp on a second or third pull once their oil is up to temp.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

Yes we are. Most Subie folk are all about snails, we know this. NA hasn't been the focus of the company or it's users for a long while. I only bring the EJ up as what is possible given the right fuel, right blueprinting and tuning. A boxer engine isn't some mysterious black hole where horsepower just vanishes as Porsche can easily confirm. I know for a fact it wouldn't be difficult for Cosworth to get 300hp out of an EJ. Expensive yes, difficult no. Hence why snails everywhere rather than NA Subies, more torque for much less money.


Point is, you mentioned the FA20 will always be weak on hp. I was asking why? I can formulate a myriad of guesses but it would be nice to hear facts from people with actual data instead. If you or someone can answer without giving away anything that'd be great. I honestly don't see the issue with letting the community know what the cock block is on the FA20. Is it really that magical compared to any other internal combustion engine?


I obviously don't want you guys or anyone else to work for free. I'm just quite surprised about the lack of transparency (hard data) with the FA20 on this forum compared to the B16 and K20 on Honda forums. Maybe 3 years is too soon and we need the 86 to turn into a discontinued beater before people feel really comfortable delving into the thing. Maybe part of the problem too is all the people willing to pay $500 for a piece of ABS that might make 1-2hp on a second or third pull once their oil is up to temp.

The transparency will be around once enough people do the work, but I can sum it up as it is *impossible* to get the VE and RPMs up to where they need to be to make big NA power. It's due to how the engine is laid out on the top end, and the inability to get the proper parts to make it make power like a Honda.

Remember, 99% of the FRS owners are NOT going to be building an engine. It's different compared to a guy whos wapping in a B18C5 or a K20xx into his existing chassis. Far, far different. Those guys have a lot more money committed, whereas the FRS community only cares about sick looking rides. The performance drive is a very, very small niche here. Most guys want bolt-ons and an e-tune, whereas Honda guys will source cams, pistons, rods, crank, bearings, valvesprings, valves, and sleeves for their minor build and swap.

[gramicci101]

To be fair though, internals have only just started to become available through FullBlown and MAPerformance. Before that, all we had were boltons. I'd imagine that once someone comes out with a reliable set of cams those will be a hot commodity. I know they were in the GC 2.5RS community. Honda's B and K engines have been around since the oceans receded and fish started walking on land, so there are a lot more aftermarket options for internal bits.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The transparency will be around once enough people do the work, but I can sum it up as it is *impossible* to get the VE and RPMs up to where they need to be to make big NA power. It's due to how the engine is laid out on the top end, and the inability to get the proper parts to make it make power like a Honda.

Remember, 99% of the FRS owners are NOT going to be building an engine. It's different compared to a guy whos wapping in a B18C5 or a K20xx into his existing chassis. Far, far different. Those guys have a lot more money committed, whereas the FRS community only cares about sick looking rides. The performance drive is a very, very small niche here. Most guys want bolt-ons and an e-tune, whereas Honda guys will source cams, pistons, rods, crank, bearings, valvesprings, valves, and sleeves for their minor build and swap.

Those were some of my many suspicions. Thanks for confirming. Sounds like any deviation from the base package to push big numbers will be very intrusive and expensive compared to a normal Honda blueprint. At least that keeps my plan for the 86 within the original performance envelope I had already planned for it.


Maybe Toyobaru can rework some packaging magic for a new 2.5L in the future that would work with the future WRX STI. Wishful thinking.


Agree with the rest of what you said which is depressing.


Thanks Mike.

[LoCo]

How can anyone say "depressing" when you're told about costs...

NA power costs money. More money than anything. And reliability is poor when pushing limits - RPM kills engines slowly, even when working correctly.

What @CSG Mike said about building - pistons rods bearongs crank valve springs and cams: that's BASIC. It's nothing special. It's a starting point for a real engine... There's oh so much more where you are able to spend money to gain that 1,2 or 3hp... But in the end - if you're the breed of person that loves NA - it's all worth it. All of it. I've sat in a 270hp NA S2k... Fuck yes!

So I'm looking forward to NA tuners developing something useful, if not - I'll probably start designing some cams sooner or later.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by LoCo

How can anyone say "depressing" when you're told about costs...

I was referring to Mike's observation about the forum, not costs. Take a valium.


You're going to design your own cams? Care to post your flow charts?