Supercharger Comparison: Innovate, Jackson, Kraftwerks, Vortech *Updated March 9 2014 - Page 15 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

utekineir · 03-09-2014, 10:51 AM

@tendogy

If i remember right several vortech owners have eaten belts (few people more than one iirc) and there was an issue with idlers shitting the bed early on, don't see those on your graph. Heres one quick link http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41080

The kw kit absolutely has a lot of little issues but comparing the headings, the issues aren't anywhere near as severe as seen on innovative and vortech kits.

Kw column is on left, innovate is on right for comparison. One list is mostly composed of installation hassles due to rushing to market, a shit manual and bad order qc, the other is a list of things that can lead to being broken on the side of the road or worse.

lol @ "no engine oil cooler solution" as an issue

Personally I'd rather have some minor installation hassles than failure while driving. Jackson def looks to have shipped the most polished kit off the bat, but for me the separate pulley was important after reading all the breakages on the vortech and innovate kits. Leaving the oem accessory belt setup alone was a big selling point in my eyes. I don't know where or when a belt will break, but without a water pump I know I won't be limping very far if necessary.

tendogy · 03-09-2014, 05:30 PM

I briefly considered trying to write up all the caveats that needed to be mentioned, but I knew I could count on you guys to do it for me

I did consider weighting the issues and/or creating an issues-over-time chart to show how the Innovate & Vortech kits might have had a smooth launch and more issues recently or vice versa.

BUT

1) I am exhausted from reading and compiling the information. I would love to do a professional-grade analysis on all this, but at the end of the day I'm not getting paid for this and am just a guy trying to decide which kit would be best for his car who is hoping to help others have an easier time when they walk down the same trail.

2) There is some value in comparing the compilations themselves, but the data is SO deeply flawed that it's not useful for any level of actual analysis. Without knowing how many people own the kits and how many issues were unreported, there is no way to perform meaningful analysis. People would be much better served by going to the threads themselves and reading the actual issues from the actual owners.

As utekineir and others have pointed out, there is a level of subjectivity even in the compilation. One person's flaw is another person's feature, so I erred on the side of inclusion when something was kind of an issue and kind of not (like the Kraftwerks oil cooler).

Perhaps a brief subjective summary would be useful, so here it goes:

Vortech

Vortech had a bunch of issues with belts and pulleys last summer, but they looked at the issue and revised their kit with a new pipe to resolve the issue. I didn't see a single issue pop up after the revision, so I think it's safe to say that problem is solved.

Additionally, nelsmar had a ton of issues but he concluded they were all fa20club's fault and not Vortech's.

Beyond that, I must say I was astonished at their lack of issues. Apart from "Beltgate 2013" they did not have a single serious issue pop up. Some blowers had a little too much oil from the factory and some people have had trouble satisfactorily constructing the washer fluid reservoir, but those are incredibly minor issues.

--------

Innovate

Innovate has a huge install base, so there are two ways to look at their compiled data. On the one hand, it seems that you have a 74% chance of having zero problems!

On the other hand, the problems they have suffered do seem to be more worrisome than the problems suffered by other kits. They have had multiple broken belts, multiple blowers with pulley manufacturing defects, and a disturbing number of CEL issues.

I left their owner's thread with the sense that the FA20 engine does not really like the Innovate blower, and might see a significantly shorter engine lifespan than the centrifugal kits. Maybe not though! I don't know.

--------

Kraftwerks

I am astounded at the lack of QC demonstrated by that company. So many people did not get all their parts in the box, or got the wrong parts. Some people aren't bothered by how loud it is, but many people expressed genuine disappointment at the volume of the noise by the cogged belt on a smooth pulley. And regardless of how owners feel about the noise, Kraftwerks intended to release a kit with a cogged idler pulley but released with a smooth (noisy) pulley instead because the cogged design was not finished.

Additionally, the owners recently had a fight about where to place blame concerning the crappy tune that comes with the "full system." The whole thing just feels like a half-baked release.

Having said all that, they have not had any truly serious car-in-danger issues, and I honestly don't expect them to. I think you could purchase this kit and be confident that you will eventually receive everything and have a happy engine. So you could conclude this is the Rotrex kit to buy if it weren't for...

--------

Jackson Racing

These guys haven't had a single negative owner comment yet. Everyone has received all their parts, all the parts have been right, no one has had fitment issues. I know they will have issues eventually because everyone does, and they do seem to have the smallest install base, but you can't ignore the fact that these guys have had a phenomenally smooth release. They obviously took the time to get things right.

--------

The Jackson kit is still ugly! I think a lot of people will still prefer "a pretty kit with QC issues" over "an ugly kit with amazing QC." That's fine though, different strokes for different folks, and I bet in 6 months-or-so Kraftwerks will have all their current issues ironed out.

Personally though, Kraftwerks has had too many little issues for me to trust them. They have a lot of happy customers, and I am not trying to discount their satisfaction, but they just don't seem to be a company who prioritizes getting "the little things" right. Five or ten issues would be one thing but they have thirty-two indisputable QC issues reported by nine owners in just four months. If you're not getting the little obvious things right, how can I trust that you're getting the big subtle things right?

That's just me though. Like I said, this is supposed to be a help for other people trying to make the same decision. That does not mean you have to come to the same conclusion. You can look at the same information and leave with a different impression!

People would be much better served by going to the threads themselves and reading the actual issues from the actual owners.

tendogy · 03-09-2014, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utekineir

If i remember right several vortech owners have eaten belts (few people more than one iirc) and there was an issue with idlers shitting the bed early on, don't see those on your graph. Heres one quick link http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41080

Didn't read my Vortech post did you

Quote:

Originally Posted by tendogy

Another big difference is that Vortech's biggest issue with idlers and belts was discussed entirely in another thread. See here. This resulted in a revision to their kit in June/July 2013 which saw them change their idler pulley and also the pipe connected to the intake manifold.

utekineir · 03-09-2014, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tendogy

Didn't read my Vortech post did you

I did, and you've put far more effort into compiling this than I ever would care to (despite having read all the threads since last summer).

But those launch timeframe issues weren't included in the graphs and issue data. Counting launch issues from one product in the graph data and not including it on another is not objective.

Despite you repeatedly saying the data is worthless we both know many nitwits will be quoting and using it as reference for decisions.

I met a guy last week that spent 6k on an sc kit and didn't know what one it was. That's the kind of retard that will just see the bar graphs and go by that despite the disclaimer.

Calum · 03-09-2014, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utekineir

I did, and you've put far more effort into compiling this than I ever would care to (despite having read all the threads since last summer).

But those launch timeframe issues weren't included in the graphs and issue data. Counting launch issues from one product in the graph data and not including it on another is not objective.

Despite you repeatedly saying the data is worthless we both know many nitwits will be quoting and using it as reference for decisions.

I met a guy last week that spent 6k on an sc kit and didn't know what one it was. That's the kind of retard that will just see the bar graphs and go by that despite the disclaimer.

None of us have the power to fix that level of stupid. They are going to continue on being that stupid no matter how well tendogy compiles this information, or if he didn't at all. We can't all live according to the needs of the lowest common denominator.

Not to mention, anyone reading these threads have already came to the same conclusions that they would if they read the tendogy's data. Hopefully, this just makes it easier to review.

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that vortech allowed a certain unsavory person to speak for them on these boards. They made no attempt to quite him, or to distances themselves from him. That alone was enough to cross them off my list. Maybe I'm being petty, but the rotrex kits seem to be making more power anyway.

Shiv@Openflash · 03-09-2014, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calum

None of us have the power to fix that level of stupid. They are going to continue on being that stupid no matter how well tendogy compiles this information, or if he didn't at all. We can't all live according to the needs of the lowest common denominator.

Not to mention, anyone reading these threads have already came to the same conclusions that they would if they read the tendogy's data. Hopefully, this just makes it easier to review.

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that vortech allowed a certain unsavory person to speak for them on these boards. They made no attempt to quite him, or to distances themselves from him. That alone was enough to cross them off my list. Maybe I'm being petty, but the rotrex kits seem to be making more power anyway.

They are?

Zach3794 · 03-09-2014, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

They are?

I don't think there has been a fair comparison done as of yet. I would personally love to see two base kits go head to head on the same gas, on the same dyno. We all know vortech has a million and one pulleys to choose from.

Same boost, same dyno, same gas, on the same day. That's the only way to get a genuine comparison.

utekineir · 03-09-2014, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calum

None of us have the power to fix that level of stupid. They are going to continue on being that stupid no matter how well tendogy compiles this information, or if he didn't at all. We can't all live according to the needs of the lowest common denominator.

Not to mention, anyone reading these threads have already came to the same conclusions that they would if they read the tendogy's data. Hopefully, this just makes it easier to review.

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that vortech allowed a certain unsavory person to speak for them on these boards. They made no attempt to quite him, or to distances themselves from him. That alone was enough to cross them off my list. Maybe I'm being petty, but the rotrex kits seem to be making more power anyway.

My point was one kit (the one which showed the lowest number of issues other than jackson) had launch issues that were not included on the graphs, the other kits had their launch issues included.

Calum · 03-09-2014, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by utekineir

My point was one kit (the one which showed the lowest number of issues) had launch issues that were not included on the graphs, the other kits had their launch issues included.

I missed that part. What wasn't included? Are you referring to vortech having to release a new compressor and charging their customers shipping because the product they originally bought didn't do what it was advertised to do? That's another reason I wont be buy a vortech kit, I forgot all about that.

utekineir · 03-09-2014, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calum

I missed that part. What wasn't included? Are you referring to vortech having to release a new compressor and charging their customers shipping because the product they originally bought didn't do what it was advertised to do? That's another reason I wont be buy a vortech kit, I forgot all about that.

Do you see seizing idlers or broken belts here? Innovate has its broken belts listed. Kw has the misclocked compressor on the first couple kits that has since been corrected listed.

tendogy · 03-09-2014, 11:06 PM

The utekineir Addendum

Utekineir really really wanted the vortech idler/belt thread added to their pile, so here it goes!

That thread discussed two separate issues which resulted in belts breaking. First, some pulleys being shipped by Vortech were crappy; there was no final word on whether it was a bad batch or a bad manufacturer. Regardless, Vortech began shipping new, different pulleys in their kits.

The second issue was a pipe-rubbing clearance issues where the pipe going over the Vortech pulley was rubbing the pulley. Vortech responded by redesigning this pipe in their kit.

There were a total of 10 owner-reported incidents reported in posts 1, 7, 12, 17, 90, 108, 114, 125, 143 of that thread. Two of them (posts 12 and 124) were already accounted for in the compilation of the larger "discussion" thread. Again, I did not include nelsmar's issues because he states those were caused by fa20club and not Vortech.

Here is the revised chart for Total Number of Issues:

Vortech's bar has gotten substantially taller (heh) as they increased from 14 to 22 issues. They've been on the market the longest though, so how does it affect their issues-per-month (IPM) number?

Their IPM has increased from 1.17 to 1.80.

Innovate would need to go issue-free for roughly 5 months to match Vortech's revised IPM.

Kraftwerks would need to go issue-free until August 2015 to match Vortech's revised IPM. If you want to disregard the "lack of oil cooler solution" row, then they could catch up in July 2015!

Jackson Racing would need seven issues reported next month to match Vortech's revised IPM.

--------

Ralph Spoilsport & normancw, you're welcome!

Sonolin · 03-10-2014, 12:44 AM

To be fair, I take it most of the innovate customers are without intercooler?

Haven't heard *much* problems with the intercooler but I could be wrong.

tendogy · 03-10-2014, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonolin

To be fair, I take it most of the innovate customers are without intercooler?

Haven't heard *much* problems with the intercooler but I could be wrong.

It's true that most Innovate customers are without the intercooler.

However, in the ~5 months that the intercooler kit has been on the market in the US they have had 3 reports of intercooler fluid leaking (it's a liquid-to-air intercooler). One report was from South Africa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

Well my coolant dropped down again....idk wtf is going on. I built up maybe 3 pounds of boost on my way into work today, it was full last night, so idk, maybe a coincidence, but i'm going to get into boost again a little on the way home and see if the level drops.

Either way this is annoying as hell. I am guessing the leak is in the intercooler, because there is no leak anywhere else, i've checked about 10 times already. Unless I just had a bunch of air in my system but I doubt it at this point. I have to check my subaru super blue coolant bottle and see how much left I have and compare it to the 2.2l the system takes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I have to fess up and eat some crow, as I said I checked multiple times for leaks and didn't find any. Low and behold today, I found one. It's been so cold here that it was hard to smell/tell. The clamp on the coolant bottle line that connects to the plastic tee was leaking and I somehow didn't see it. Was leaking on the bottom. I repositioned it and tightened it down, so I will check it again but all seemed ok after a few checks. I can't tell if those pre clamped lines are leaking at all on the tee but I cleaned the area up and will check again next drive out. Thanks for following up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan86

That's the problem I had, the O rings in the core did not seal properly causing boost to leak into the cooler and manifold.
How you pick this up is you will notice coolant dropping each time you drive and give hard pulls. Should see coolant which came out the bottle cap.
Also the car will feel very jerky down low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CK_Bladesmith

I also found that I've got a minor leak where the lines are crimped going into the coolant bottle.

djdnz · 03-10-2014, 01:25 PM

@tendogy

Thanks for your research, very interesting to get that perspective. I have been lurking in all of the S/C kit threads since the beginning so I have been following along and making my own decisions - but the info is a nice refresher none the less!

And to your comment about:
"I think a lot of people will still prefer "a pretty kit with QC issues" over "an ugly kit with amazing QC."

Soooo true... I'm in that group lol! If jackson made their kit look more factory, I'd have my winner. But for now I'll sit and wait for KW to get their act together a bit. I still like the Vortech, but there's a few things that have turned me off. I also LOVE the look of the Innovate, I like the simplicity, but I am not really convinced in terms of the performance.

03-09-2014, 10:51 AM	#197
utekineir blowhard Join Date: Jun 2013 Drives: frs, project forester Location: ma Posts: 980 Thanks: 53 Thanked 604 Times in 316 Posts Mentioned: 5 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	@tendogy If i remember right several vortech owners have eaten belts (few people more than one iirc) and there was an issue with idlers shitting the bed early on, don't see those on your graph. Heres one quick link http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41080 The kw kit absolutely has a lot of little issues but comparing the headings, the issues aren't anywhere near as severe as seen on innovative and vortech kits. Kw column is on left, innovate is on right for comparison. One list is mostly composed of installation hassles due to rushing to market, a shit manual and bad order qc, the other is a list of things that can lead to being broken on the side of the road or worse. lol @ "no engine oil cooler solution" as an issue Personally I'd rather have some minor installation hassles than failure while driving. Jackson def looks to have shipped the most polished kit off the bat, but for me the separate pulley was important after reading all the breakages on the vortech and innovate kits. Leaving the oem accessory belt setup alone was a big selling point in my eyes. I don't know where or when a belt will break, but without a water pump I know I won't be limping very far if necessary. Attached Images Last edited by utekineir; 03-09-2014 at 11:08 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Kraftwerks Supercharger Owners Thread	projek_01	Forced Induction	4310	04-07-2025 02:12 PM
Kraftwerks Rotrex Supercharger Discussion	nelsmar	Forced Induction	697	01-18-2022 01:06 PM
Kraftwerks Supercharger kit-Now stocked at JRP	Stav	Canada Classifieds	4	05-27-2014 10:07 PM
Kraftwerks Supercharger??	umpadupa	Forced Induction	1	08-05-2013 06:27 PM
Innovate and Vortech Acceleration Comparison Video 2	Dezoris	Forced Induction	36	07-18-2013 10:32 PM

03-09-2014, 05:30 PM	#198
tendogy Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Drives: FR-S Location: Texas Posts: 106 Thanks: 18 Thanked 169 Times in 45 Posts Mentioned: 6 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I briefly considered trying to write up all the caveats that needed to be mentioned, but I knew I could count on you guys to do it for me I did consider weighting the issues and/or creating an issues-over-time chart to show how the Innovate & Vortech kits might have had a smooth launch and more issues recently or vice versa. BUT 1) I am exhausted from reading and compiling the information. I would love to do a professional-grade analysis on all this, but at the end of the day I'm not getting paid for this and am just a guy trying to decide which kit would be best for his car who is hoping to help others have an easier time when they walk down the same trail. 2) There is some value in comparing the compilations themselves, but the data is SO deeply flawed that it's not useful for any level of actual analysis. Without knowing how many people own the kits and how many issues were unreported, there is no way to perform meaningful analysis. People would be much better served by going to the threads themselves and reading the actual issues from the actual owners. As utekineir and others have pointed out, there is a level of subjectivity even in the compilation. One person's flaw is another person's feature, so I erred on the side of inclusion when something was kind of an issue and kind of not (like the Kraftwerks oil cooler). Perhaps a brief subjective summary would be useful, so here it goes: Vortech Vortech had a bunch of issues with belts and pulleys last summer, but they looked at the issue and revised their kit with a new pipe to resolve the issue. I didn't see a single issue pop up after the revision, so I think it's safe to say that problem is solved. Additionally, nelsmar had a ton of issues but he concluded they were all fa20club's fault and not Vortech's. Beyond that, I must say I was astonished at their lack of issues. Apart from "Beltgate 2013" they did not have a single serious issue pop up. Some blowers had a little too much oil from the factory and some people have had trouble satisfactorily constructing the washer fluid reservoir, but those are incredibly minor issues. -------- Innovate Innovate has a huge install base, so there are two ways to look at their compiled data. On the one hand, it seems that you have a 74% chance of having zero problems! On the other hand, the problems they have suffered do seem to be more worrisome than the problems suffered by other kits. They have had multiple broken belts, multiple blowers with pulley manufacturing defects, and a disturbing number of CEL issues. I left their owner's thread with the sense that the FA20 engine does not really like the Innovate blower, and might see a significantly shorter engine lifespan than the centrifugal kits. Maybe not though! I don't know. -------- Kraftwerks I am astounded at the lack of QC demonstrated by that company. So many people did not get all their parts in the box, or got the wrong parts. Some people aren't bothered by how loud it is, but many people expressed genuine disappointment at the volume of the noise by the cogged belt on a smooth pulley. And regardless of how owners feel about the noise, Kraftwerks intended to release a kit with a cogged idler pulley but released with a smooth (noisy) pulley instead because the cogged design was not finished. Additionally, the owners recently had a fight about where to place blame concerning the crappy tune that comes with the "full system." The whole thing just feels like a half-baked release. Having said all that, they have not had any truly serious car-in-danger issues, and I honestly don't expect them to. I think you could purchase this kit and be confident that you will eventually receive everything and have a happy engine. So you could conclude this is the Rotrex kit to buy if it weren't for... -------- Jackson Racing These guys haven't had a single negative owner comment yet. Everyone has received all their parts, all the parts have been right, no one has had fitment issues. I know they will have issues eventually because everyone does, and they do seem to have the smallest install base, but you can't ignore the fact that these guys have had a phenomenally smooth release. They obviously took the time to get things right. -------- The Jackson kit is still ugly! I think a lot of people will still prefer "a pretty kit with QC issues" over "an ugly kit with amazing QC." That's fine though, different strokes for different folks, and I bet in 6 months-or-so Kraftwerks will have all their current issues ironed out. Personally though, Kraftwerks has had too many little issues for me to trust them. They have a lot of happy customers, and I am not trying to discount their satisfaction, but they just don't seem to be a company who prioritizes getting "the little things" right. Five or ten issues would be one thing but they have thirty-two indisputable QC issues reported by nine owners in just four months. If you're not getting the little obvious things right, how can I trust that you're getting the big subtle things right? That's just me though. Like I said, this is supposed to be a help for other people trying to make the same decision. That does not mean you have to come to the same conclusion. You can look at the same information and leave with a different impression! People would be much better served by going to the threads themselves and reading the actual issues from the actual owners.

03-09-2014, 11:06 PM	#207
tendogy Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Drives: FR-S Location: Texas Posts: 106 Thanks: 18 Thanked 169 Times in 45 Posts Mentioned: 6 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	The utekineir Addendum Utekineir really really wanted the vortech idler/belt thread added to their pile, so here it goes! That thread discussed two separate issues which resulted in belts breaking. First, some pulleys being shipped by Vortech were crappy; there was no final word on whether it was a bad batch or a bad manufacturer. Regardless, Vortech began shipping new, different pulleys in their kits. The second issue was a pipe-rubbing clearance issues where the pipe going over the Vortech pulley was rubbing the pulley. Vortech responded by redesigning this pipe in their kit. There were a total of 10 owner-reported incidents reported in posts 1, 7, 12, 17, 90, 108, 114, 125, 143 of that thread. Two of them (posts 12 and 124) were already accounted for in the compilation of the larger "discussion" thread. Again, I did not include nelsmar's issues because he states those were caused by fa20club and not Vortech. Here is the revised chart for Total Number of Issues: Vortech's bar has gotten substantially taller (heh) as they increased from 14 to 22 issues. They've been on the market the longest though, so how does it affect their issues-per-month (IPM) number? Their IPM has increased from 1.17 to 1.80. Innovate would need to go issue-free for roughly 5 months to match Vortech's revised IPM. Kraftwerks would need to go issue-free until August 2015 to match Vortech's revised IPM. If you want to disregard the "lack of oil cooler solution" row, then they could catch up in July 2015! Jackson Racing would need seven issues reported next month to match Vortech's revised IPM. -------- Ralph Spoilsport & normancw, you're welcome!

03-10-2014, 12:44 AM	#208
Sonolin Banned Join Date: Sep 2012 Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S Location: SoCal Posts: 885 Thanks: 1,489 Thanked 289 Times in 176 Posts Mentioned: 5 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	To be fair, I take it most of the innovate customers are without intercooler? Haven't heard much problems with the intercooler but I could be wrong.

03-10-2014, 01:25 PM	#210
djdnz 1337 Join Date: Oct 2011 Drives: 2013 BRZ WRB S/C Location: San Jose, CA / Waterloo, ON Posts: 1,134 Thanks: 776 Thanked 482 Times in 269 Posts Mentioned: 7 Post(s) Tagged: 2 Thread(s)	@tendogy Thanks for your research, very interesting to get that perspective. I have been lurking in all of the S/C kit threads since the beginning so I have been following along and making my own decisions - but the info is a nice refresher none the less! And to your comment about: "I think a lot of people will still prefer "a pretty kit with QC issues" over "an ugly kit with amazing QC." Soooo true... I'm in that group lol! If jackson made their kit look more factory, I'd have my winner. But for now I'll sit and wait for KW to get their act together a bit. I still like the Vortech, but there's a few things that have turned me off. I also LOVE the look of the Innovate, I like the simplicity, but I am not really convinced in terms of the performance.

User Name		Remember Me?
Password