Sprintex or Vortech, which setup has more potential?

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by moto-mike

Ok, this is rather comical. You've obviously not met myself nor really seen what we do in its entirety.

There's a whole thread that is completely open about everything, and we have dyno numbers good and bad, and I've never been shy to post up a crooked vortech graph nor a wobbly innovate graph. You can see both get better with time as I have made clear that tunes get better with time. Several owners will attest to this. As for this hood shutting business, it is absolutely ridiculous to do this on a dyno. AEM markets this in the CAI development, but we're not developing a CAI, we're testing blowers.

You guys are something else, you never answer the questions, ever.
In your own Innovate thread you ignored all the questions about IAT and heat soak. (right on first three pages) You and Adam avoid those topics like the plague. So let me directly ask you the questions and let your technical background do the talking.

Let's clear all this skepticism?

• Leaving the hood shut while tuning on the dyno namely for the Innovate kit simulates heat soak conditions on the street (real world), where the blower and boost temps will reach terminal levels and never recover. This is exactly how it happens on the street, coolant and oil temps will rise to more realistic levels this way. No IC, no recovery from front mounted fans/airflow. There is zero air flow to cool the intake air temps with the hood open or closed. With it open heat dissipates more easily without a sealed engine bay making it less accurate.

(this specifically relates to the Innovate kit)

• Give a detailed explanation as to why aside from generating higher HP numbers you would leave it open?
• How many forced induction kits have you sold that were non-intercooled or even that you know of outside of this platform?
  

Originally Posted by moto-mike

I normally wouldn't waste time replying to this kind of stuff, but you've been well intentioned with your skepticism which I enjoy, so I will assume you just don't know how we operate. If we were in bed with vendors you'd see way more products in our store, and frankly that's the lat image I'd want to leave anyone with. It is almost as bad as RMAs.

You are directly connected to Innovate as a reseller and tuner and are under contract not to disclose certain aspects of that business. I know this by talking to other vendors involved with Innovate, who cannot answer many of these tough questions because of contract issues.

You are a vendor account, here to generate revenue. What I do is create content and contribute to the community, aside from the owners of the website I can promise you I am one of the most invested on this forum in terms of creating content and attempting to provide information to things people want to know, including things I want to know.

I am glad you find it comical someone actually questioning your process and not taking everything at face value.

Originally Posted by moto-mike

Now for people talking about the track, how many put in the requisite $10k in gearing, driveshafts, suspension, cooling, and brakes to handle 300 track hp? Safety equipment? Lots of folks get out a time or two, but after a season when faced with a 4k brake kit, 250/tire that lasts 3 track days, gearboxes every year, axles, safety equipment....at that point it will be very few. Look at Grand-Am, world challenge teams...they spend 20k to prep a car with 200hp. And still have failures. Frankly with 300whp and a driver who is motivated, it won't make it past 20 minutes no matter the kit, unless you do the aforementioned.

We are not talking about building a race car here. I am sure less than 1% of these cars sold have even seen wheel to wheel racing. But a much larger percentage run time trials and HPDE. There are plenty of guys running higher HP on the track for longer than 20 minutes without driveshafts gearing, axles 4k brake kit full suspension. You should try it.

These are basic questions that should easily be answered by and tuner and manufacturer:

• What are the boost air temps of the Innovate kit?
• Why was the MAF left in the factory location where is becomes totally useless?
  
• Why was it released non-intercooled when the rest of the world market has it?
  
• When is the intercooler going to be released what is the hold up?
  
• Can you provide 3-4 back to back dynos of an Innovate car running 91 or 92 octane (without meth) with video to show how stable your tunes are?
• Can you provide any logs of owners of 91 92 Octane to show back to back hard street runs or track runs?
• Would you sell an out of the box Innovate kit to someone with your tune and be confident enough to say it would be stable for a 20 minute session on the track running 91-93 octane.
• Do you think the Innovate kit needs an intercooler to be stable on all fuel types to run hard on the track(occasionally) and street.
• According to Adam the blower does not generate enough heat to be an issue, do you agree with this statement?
  

[whataboutbob]

I'd be interested in providing a car to provide these statistics.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by whataboutbob

I'd be interested in providing a car to provide these statistics.

I'd love to see it.

[ft_sjo]

@Dezoris Who the fuck do you think you are?

My perception of you is that you gather up all the bullshit that goes around on forums and then make pretty videos about them. Then all the bullshitters worship you and it goes to your head and you think you are some kind of authority on the subject matter.

You're not.

Yes, you do 'bring something to the community'. You bring bullshit, and people that unfortunately don't know any better, lap it up.


Think of it like this. When computer nerds watch a film like 'Hackers', they kind of accept it but know it's fake and not realistic. They make little jokes and laugh about it.

That's what qualified engineers/tuners do when they see your junk. All the ignoramuses love it though and think it's amazing.




Just because a tuner doesn't tell you what you 'think' you need to hear doesn't make them shifty or secretive. It's more than likely what you're asking for is just irrelevant nonsense, a bit like this question "Why was the MAF left in the factory location where is becomes totally useless?".


I know you're not going to change what you do, and your followers will protest and throw mud at this post, but use this to understand that more qualified people, are laughing at you. I don't doubt you mean well, I am sure you think you're doing the right thing, but I am not convinced what you aim to promote is not what you are conveying.

[sw20kosh]

I have never seen a car dyno/tuned with the hood down. I have had many of my own car's dyno'd many times and not once has someone said "you should have your hood down".

The main problem with a dyno is there is not enough air flowing through the engine bay to simulate real world conditions. You want to make that problem worse? Gigantic fans aren't even enough and the engine must cool down between pulls.

That being said, I do agree that post blower temp data from road course sessions should be shown. People who want to track their car hard with stg 1 are very interested in this data as it would put their minds at ease. I, personally, took that question out of the equation with meth injection, but that is a choice not everyone makes.

At the very least FA20club's little plate should help answer some of this with logs from users who track their stg 1.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I'd love to see it.

@Andy@FA20Club @FA20Club.com @Jason@Nameless are those IAT sensor plates available yet? if so, i'll buy one if it will make these guys happy.

i've actually got some dyno time scheduled for saturday morning so if you have anything in stock i can pay extra to have it overnighted.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

@Andy@FA20Club @FA20Club.com @Jason@Nameless are those IAT sensor plates available yet? if so, i'll buy one if it will make these guys happy.

Thanks for taking one for the team! In all fairness though, knowing that you have proper IAT should make *you* happy.

[ft_sjo]

You'll be glad to know the MAP sensor supplied with the chargecooler kit has a built-in IAT sensor. Unfortunately Sprintex weren't sharp enough to actually make use of it! I will.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Foobar

Thanks for taking one for the team! In all fairness though, knowing that you have proper IAT should make *you* happy.

Fair enough, then again my car feels great and that makes me pretty happy too!

Edited my post above, forgot to mention that i've already got some dyno time scheduled for saturday morning. If one of those guys has something available now i can pay to get it overnighted and provide some data with pretty quick turnaround.

[regal]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

"Why was the MAF left in the factory location where is becomes totally useless?".

.

A statement like this just shows Dezoris has zero knowledge of basic supercharging principles that are based on physics -thermodynamics 101 for who went past high school. He is getting bad info from "gear head" tuners and spreading those lack of understanding basic concepts of forced induction.

He wants to see Sprintex's thermo calculations that make the thing predictable without an intercooler, why would their engineers share that info with a guy whose dash panel looks like a bad 70's disco flashback

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

• What are the boost air temps of the Innovate kit?
• Why was the MAF left in the factory location where is becomes totally useless?
  
• Why was it released non-intercooled when the rest of the world market has it?
  
• When is the intercooler going to be released what is the hold up?
  
• Can you provide 3-4 back to back dynos of an Innovate car running 91 or 92 octane (without meth) with video to show how stable your tunes are?
• Can you provide any logs of owners of 91 92 Octane to show back to back hard street runs or track runs?
• Would you sell an out of the box Innovate kit to someone with your tune and be confident enough to say it would be stable for a 20 minute session on the track running 91-93 octane.
• Do you think the Innovate kit needs an intercooler to be stable on all fuel types to run hard on the track(occasionally) and street.
• According to Adam the blower does not generate enough heat to be an issue, do you agree with this statement?

I would also like to see an answer to these questions, but I don't think moto should be speaking on behalf of Innovate.

Innovate posted this.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=251
But then again, this was also posted.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=73

Believe what you want. What I believe is that Gem was right when he said the style of intercooler used with this kit is too restrictive to work well, or wont pull enough heat out to be effective, everything else has followed from there. Including a block off plate right where an IAT sensor should be. If the kit works for you, or you don't mind doing the supporting mods to ensure sufficient knock resistance, awesome. It's clearly making decent power.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by regal

A statement like this just shows Dezoris has zero knowledge of basic supercharging principles that are based on physics -thermodynamics 101 for who went past high school. He is getting bad info from "gear head" tuners and spreading those lack of understanding basic concepts of forced induction.

He wants to see Sprintex's thermo calculations that make the thing predictable without an intercooler, why would their engineers share that info with a guy whose dash panel looks like a bad 70's disco flashback

Can you explain why having an intake air temperature sensor before the compressor is better then having it afterwards?

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by regal

A statement like this just shows Dezoris has zero knowledge of basic supercharging principles that are based on physics -thermodynamics 101 for who went past high school. He is getting bad info from "gear head" tuners and spreading those lack of understanding basic concepts of forced induction.

He wants to see Sprintex's thermo calculations that make the thing predictable without an intercooler, why would their engineers share that info with a guy whose dash panel looks like a bad 70's disco flashback

I went past high school and then some, but I never had to take any courses in Thermodynamics

There are plenty of arguments about where MAF/IAT sensors should be placed in a supercharged car. I think it all boils down to the specific use-case and whether the system, in its entirety, was designed for one or the other (or both). If memory serves correctly, even Vortech has systems with draw-through placement. Their FT86 kit uses blow-through though.

As for the disco dash... let's just say "to each their own". :happy0180:

[swift996]

I'm very interested in seeing the IAT data because nothing has been published yet so it's going off of theory at this point.

@Dezoris I had 3 back to back dyno pulls in 100 degree heat and all three were almost identical. The shop (Pure Automotive) did the first pull in 3rd gear as it was super hot and their practice for the dyno day that day. However, after the initial pull, he did 2 right after in 4th and all looked the same. Granted this was on E50 but legitimate. The 3rd gear pull obviously read a little lower (I think about 6whp) so he struck it from the file and left the two (in 4th) when he gave me the print out. This might have been the hottest day to date on the east coast, it was a sauna and packed with people in a tight bay.

I wonder if Innovate coated the manifold in anything? I noticed the OEM one had a small amount of heat wrap (likely to protect the electronics) but I wonder if there is heat soak if a bit of wrap would bring that effect down a little. I haven't personally experienced any heat soak. I'm running an oil cooler now and had some great data on temps at the track. I just wish I had a IAT post compressor to have real data on the effects over time. Additionally more compression = more heat so I'm anxious to see the net delta of the 70mm pulley.