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BRZ/FR-S Strut Tower Brace - Any Interest?
ATTENTION: The Group Buy is officially CLOSED!
Check out our website for more information or to purchase your brace! http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_final5.jpg [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YrchyZDwiQ"]GrimmSpeed BRZ/FR-S Strut Tower Brace Install Guide - YouTube[/ame] It's official, ladies and gentleman. Strut bars are back from powdercoat and are looking really sharp! Most of you have been following it's development since day one, but for those that haven't, what you see here is the very best and most cost effective strut tower brace available. In both simulated and on-road testing, we're able to show that the factory triangulation bar actually do their jobs quite well! The only missing piece is a rigid bar tying both strut towers together, completing the triangle, and let me tell you, what a difference it makes. From the moment you pull out of the driveway, you'll feel a stiffer front end. Less creaks, noticeably smoother and more stable over cracks/potholes/etc and much snappier steering response. I wouldn't say it if it weren't true, but you don't have to take my word for it! https://www.grimmspeed.com/images/pr...4_original.jpg Quick Specs:
(MSRP: $158.99) http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_final9.jpg http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_final8.jpg http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_final1.jpg http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_final2.jpg http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_final3.jpg http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ...tb_final10.jpg http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ...tb_final11.jpg Original Post: We're back at it again folks, and once again we're looking for your input! In our previous ft86club collaboration, the hood struts, the ideas and responses from the community here were very valuable. With your help we were able to release an extremely successful product with ideas and features that YOU want. So please, once again, any and all input is welcome whether you have a question, concern, idea, or just want to hit us with some motivational words! Most people are aware of what a strut tower brace does, but aren't entirely aware of why they want one. So what does it actually do? Most people would say: "It stiffens up the front of the car." But what does that accomplish, and how does it actually make your car better? Lets start with some expectations of what it SHOULD be doing: A properly designed strut tower brace should reduce movement between the strut towers, which results in more predictable handling characteristics. What you should notice as a driver (especially if you have sticky tires and complimentary upgrades) is increased response, turn-in, and traction. This is accomplished because you are minimizing a portion of the chassis as an additional deflection in the suspension system, which removes some unwanted changes in camber, castor, etc. An additional side effect of adding a strut tower brace that is often overlooked comes from reducing chassis flex. Reducing movement will reduce fatigue, which is useful for increasing the structural longevity of the car itself. The first thing that we did before developing any concepts was to determine if these cars actually benefit from a strut tower brace, as we're not interested in providing a part that does nothing. These cars already come stock with triangulation bars to provide additional rigidity, so we wanted to determine how effective these were, and if we wanted to design a brace that included them as well. We will touch on the specifics of our testing in another post, but in the interest of brevity we'll summarize our testing and results here. We made a very simple brace out of metal that fit on the studs on the strut towers that the triangulation bars are bolted to. We then took several data sets with our Faro Arm with and without different combinations of the stock triangulation bars and prototype strut tower brace. We did this to compare how much the strut towers were deflecting when we jacked up one side of the chassis to a calibrated height. This is NOT indicative of the lateral loads the strut towers see in cornering, where the forces are much higher and specifically located. Instead, this test is much more simplified, and results seen here will be more exaggerated when applied to real life cornering. http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_faro2.jpg I took several data sets and then compiled them looking for trends. In my software I held one strut tower in place, and measured the differences in deflection in the other strut tower. I'll post a picture here showing some quick visual results. The blue stud represents the car sitting on the ground, completely unloaded. The yellow stud is the car loaded (jacked up to a calibrated height) with the triangulation bars and our prototype strut tower brace. The green stud is the car loaded with just triangulation bars. Finally, the red stud is the car loaded without the triangulation bars or strut tower bar. http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ/ft86stb_1stud.jpg What this initially shows is that the stock triangulation bars do a pretty decent job of minimizing deflection. It also shows us that adding a strut tower brace to those triangulation bars does an even better job at that task. Let the designs begin!!! We've identified how the strut bar should perform as our initial criteria for design. From there, there are still so many decisions that need to be made. We've weighed many options, and are still on the fence with some. Should it be hinged, or welded solid? What mounting method/location should it use? Is adjusting for preload important? What should it look like? How much should it cost? The list goes on and on! Thus far, the direction we're leaning in is a strut tower bar that is welded solid, non-adjustable, fits over your stock triangulation bars, and utilizes those two mounting studs. We're thinking something that is clean and appears to be OEM... We've whipped up a few designs in CAD, just to get moving, and we're interested in showing off a couple to give you an idea of the direction we're headed in. These will most likely be made in steel, and powdercoated textured black. Use these quick concepts as a jumping off point for your ideas, and let us know what you like, what you don't, what is important to you, and what isn't, we want to hear it all! http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/BRZ...ktConcept2.jpg I know what you're thinking: "I dunno, I guess I need to see what it looks like on the car to really be able to tell." Well, me too. So I used my favorite thing in the world to print one of these concepts up: Re-read this post a couple of times, take a look at the pictures, visualize it on your own car, then come back and let us know your opinions! I'll be updating this thread often as this project progresses, just the same as we did on our thread about the hood struts. We literally can not wait to hear your ideas, so don't be shy! Chase Engineering |
This list represents those interested in being contacted when the bars are ready to ship. We'll be offering you guys a killer group buy price (TBD) that's way below MSRP. Being on this list, or adding yourself, in no way commits you to purchasing!
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I like this bar because 1. it's simple and 2. retains use of the OEM triangular bars which leads to a lower cost. Any chance you guys are thinking about offering different colors? (Red/blue/polished, the normal strut bar colors)
This truly does look like a function over form bar. Subed for updates :thumbsup: |
I agree it should be welded, not hinged. It should also be solid, not hollow and very strong as to not bend under extreme forces. I like the example in the pictures and where it is mounting as long as there isn't any unwanted flex on those points in the chassis compared to the strut bolt points. If you're able to keep the price around $100 (ideally exactly $100) then I'd buy it. I'd also like an option for different colors like textured red, black, and blue.
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I'm curious to see how much this will actually benefit the chassis, as it already seems pretty stiff to begin with. Most testing I've seen shows that it takes QUITE a bit of stress to make these things worth it (Outside cosmetics, obviously. The ricer in me thinks they look badass.). If anyone can produce some reliable data it'll be you guys. Subbed for interest!
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looks nice but needs different colors
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Function = Benefit notwithstanding... from a purely aesthetic standpoint... I like the simple clean look and wonder if you are considering having replacements for OEM braces so that there is a consistent "look and feel" (i.e., texture, etc.).
If so.. .then +1 on offering in different colors. |
Welded solid, I wouldn't mind preload adjustment, powdercoated semi gloss black (to match the stock bars better). Where do I send payment?
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I think the prototype looks perfect and I definitely want it to match the MCB and Hood Struts. I like the solid idea. Maybe do what you did with the struts and add and option logo that you can put on. Of course the cheaper the better without sacrificing the rigidity. Replacements for the stock triangle bars as an option or next project would be nice too. I have a Crawford AOS so the would have to mount close to stock
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Hmmm.....
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Forgive the crappy MSPaint rendering but could you not have it mount something like this? Something about mounting it solely to that piece of metal that is tack welded onto the strut tower seems flimsy to me. Other than that, love the solid, no hinge design.
http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/q...tb_proto1a.jpg |
1. Would be cool to have grimmspeed versions of the stock triangular bars as well (optional) which is nice since they are separate pieces and don't need to be purchased if not wanted.
2. Solid bars,not hollow 3. Nice colors would be a plus over functionality of course 4. If the main bar shares the same bolts as the stock bars, maybe having hardware that has longer threads, I know it would be nice to just use the stock hardware, but if calls for it, it might be worth it. That's something I've found with the password jdm struts, they are short in my opinion. I like how they are straight and don't have unnecessary bends, weld points, or hinged. This should be a straightforward rigid design I like how they don't surround the entire circle around the struts, I think they just need to hit those two points you have or the 3 on the inside. I like the design, it's not too big and it's simple. If its affordable I may ditch what I have haha. It's nice to have something we all collectively have input toward. So if there's a group buy I'm in haha |
I like the idea of a solid bar. OEM-looking paint like the hood struts would be awesome. Optional paint colors would be welcomed, like red or blue at least, or maybe a color that better compliments your logo. It gets kinda messy when you offer colors, though, since it's nearly impossible to color-match and compliment aftermarket parts.
The angle of my reasoning: I plan on getting the blue engine cover, so a blue bar has a high chance of looking tacky stretched across the engine bay, not matching the engine cover's blue color. Are the stock mounting studs designed to withstand the extra pressure from the strut bar? Are they long enough to withhold their length and integrity with having another part bolted to the chassis? Overall, I'm for this. I know your price will be reasonable. I expect it to cost more than $100, but not a whole lot more. |
Do you find any benefit in using the strut mounting bolts to mount the strut tower bar? Does this increase rigidity? I know that many are looking to save cost by using the OEM triangulation bars, but would there be any benefit in incorporating these in one solid triangulation bar? If so, how much?
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Chase, when you say solid, are you saying a solid bar or just solidly mounted (no hinges)
A completely solid bar seems like it would be obscenely heavy. |
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My post says "welded solid," when I should have just said "welded." A solid bar WOULD be obscenely heavy, and none of us want to add any more weight to this car! And at a certain thickness the bar is no longer the limiting factor, the chassis will be. For the record the bar we used on the prototype to test deflection was 14ga, and we'll test more once we settle on brackets, etc. Chase |
I really like the simplicity of it. Definitely looks OEM but I could also see something with the triangulation bars integrated somehow. I'm not one who needs red/blue crap in the engine bay. But what about a "bare metal" or "primered" option so folks can go get them powdered whatever color they want? (Primered just to keep rust off...any PC'er will blast the parts anyway).
I'll let the more smarter people overrule me here, but I've heard a few times that if a strut bar isn't really beefy, it's almost useless. If it's going to function it needs to be strong, not a flat piece of aluminum. Visually, I'm not sure about the mounts, only because I don't know how strong those mounting points are, like someone mentioned above, vs. the strut studs. Maybe it's fine and I'm just used to seeing a common mounting style. Lastly, and this isn't an issue for me (at least not any time soon), but I'm sure some out there will want to make sure it fits with X/Y/Z turbo or SC kit or catch can, etc. Great job so far, can't wait to see where this goes! |
I would hope it will be made from aluminium because I don't want to add any unnecessary weight to my car. Surely alloy construction can match steel in function with less weight?
If that's correct and the OEM bars are steel then a set of 3 in black alloy to look OEM would be my choice. Perhaps an option to have them in polished alloy but with a bit more attention to form to go with the bling factor. |
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I'm sure Chase will address a lot of the comments in more detail tomorrow, but I wanted to chime in to thank you all again for your input so far! Without you guys, we would have a tough time molding these into such successful products!
Regarding the engineering side of things, we've adopted a methodology for this particular product and it's to keep the brace as clean, simple and affordable as possible without sacrificing performance. We've got the tools and the knowledge to collect and analyze real, robust data and react accordingly. If a bracket is too thin to be rigid enough, or if a lighter bar will do the job as well as a heavier bar, you can bet that our engineering and design process will bring those details to the surface so that we can all benefit from them. So, with that said, keep the ideas flowing! Hopefully you guys can teach us a thing or two and maybe we can do the same. In the end, we'll all end up with a killer strut bar (and maybe triangulation bars, if we can prove that there's improvement to be made, sorry Chase ;))! Matt Engineering |
Summarizing: For a given amount of chassis flex (however much there is), your simulations suggest that the two factory bars decrease strut tower deflection by ~50%. Adding the Grimmspeed bar would decrease tower deflection by ~90%.
Questions: 1) Tell us about your model. FEA can be a mixed bag, and it all depends on how you set things up. Be proud of your hard work, and show it off! 2) How much strut tower deflection have you guys seen during testing? RCE recorded 4-5 mm of deflection on the 2004 STI in a 1g skidpad session, per this discussion: LINK The FEA results are directly proportional to the chassis stiffness you chose, so that's why I'm curious about it. Alot of methods have been discussed over the years, without enough actual results. Deflection: RCE's draw a mark method (kinda ghetto). Linear potentiometer (can be noisy). Stress: Shear pins in a strut brace (only tells max compression force). Strain gages on a strut brace (can be noisy). While I appreciate the "stiffer is always better" argument, if we can identify a legitimate deficiency and address it properly... your products will fly off the shelf. |
Certainly interested in this. I'm no expert in this arena, so I'll leave that to you guys and those who can provide meaniful input. I will say I do like the simplistic approach that will lead to a product that works rather than just looks good!
Sub'd to follow along and watch the updates! |
Awesome insight! I'll save some of these details for the morning, since it's getting late and I'm not at a workstation, but I should mention that we haven't shared any FEA yet. The model shown in the second figure is actual, recorded data from a stationary vehicle. FEA and simulations are great, and you'll definitely see a decent amount of it, but we really value good, hard data collection when possible. Hopefully we can stop just short of making me dust off my WinGeo discs.
We will definitely be refining our test methods as the project progresses and we can justify the investment. We just wanted something, even if it's rough, to justify starting the project. Between the two of us, we have a good deal of experience with FSAE, SAE Baja, racing and vehicle dynamics testing/evaluation, so if we can justify the time/resources, you can bet we'll get way too far into the data/analysis. Stick around, you're obviously a sharp dude! Hopefully once this 8-12in of snow they're predicting for tomorrow passes, we can get back to warm, dry roads and the, uh, testing. Matt Engineering |
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It looks like the trd strut bar
I liked |
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Matt Engineering |
I like the original. I doubt I would be buying one though, just for the simple fact that I don't think I can modify these in order to stay in my current autoX class.
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BTW, it's morning. DETAILS!!! :paddle: If this was a physical test, did you guys use the FARO arm + a floor jack? You guys do a phenomenal job of product development. Analysis, materials, machining, etc. were all 100% proper for the master cylinder brace. Alot of us want to see you guys take that methodology and continue it for more complex parts. Thanks for supporting the 86 community, and hopefully we can make you guys filthy rich. :happy0180: |
Interested. Can't wait till the final production comes out. You guys make awesome products!
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You nailed it. We used the FARO arm to plot points on the strut towers with the car in a number of different states (corner lifted, different bars, etc). Like Chase mentioned, it's not a perfect simulation of how the chassis behaves on the road/track, but we were able to get enough solid, repeatable data that we can be confident that we aren't traveling down a dead-end road. Thanks for the kind words! We don't need filthy rich; we're already living the gearhead/engineers dream each and every day we get to help you guys go faster and look cooler. We've really enjoyed working with the ft86 community to bring you guys products that you want/need. We have a TON of experience with exhaust design and manufacturing and when the time is right, we'll be raising the bar where that's concerned. Check out a couple of our videos from other subaru exhaust revisions/design. Hurry, before Chase sees that I'm posting off-topic in his thread! Matt Engineering [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt4ctbMk5PM"]GrimmSpeed - Subaru Divorced Downpipe Release - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSKunE1nL7s&list=UU3Yba4Yekzq3no0EX-ueyrA&index=3"]GrimmSpeed Exhaust Lineup Update and Re-Release - YouTube[/ame] |
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Speaking of exhaust, I'm sure we'd all like to see a header that posts some big numbers. :thumbup: Particularly one that isn't astronomically expensive. Everyone has their hands in the catback market right now, and a lot of vendors are making front pipes and over pipes. Headers seem to be the fewest in number. You know what they say, if you build it, they will come. :burnrubber: |
Albeit, down the road, id like to see 3-4 color options, anodized. In the past ive accidently been wrenching on the car and chipped paint on powdercoated strut bars.
-Also be nice to have optional replacements for the other two bars -While the design of the bar is simple enough i think to set the bar apart from the competition there needs to be a stylized engraving/small ridges/textures on the bar. (Especially if prices are going to be simliar to those already offered.) |
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Fruit loop colours, giant engravings/lables/logos can end up pretty tacky in most cases. |
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I offered opinions on making the bar different from the rest, utilizing different style options. Nowhere did i mention egregious or obscene logos, labels, or giant engravings. |
It already is different.
So far this is the least obnoxious, everything else has some curves (even when they call it straight), hinged, chrome, gold, blue, red, some tacky engraving/cutouts/etching, etc. I just want it to perform as advertised, looks oem and is cheaper because there is no need to spend extra so it looks like a marketing billboard. |
Straight and hollow for that bar. Any added weight, is even worse when it's up high like that.
Has anyone put a BRz/FR-S on a 7-post, K&C, or even a pull down rig to get data yet? |
GREAT input so far. And just so everyone is clear, as always, there are no bad ideas in brainstorming. Keep throwing it at us!
I'm just going to do a quick run through of what I'm hearing so far to keep ideas fresh: -Interested in multiple colors. Whether it is to match our current line, or the stock bars, or just colors that people like. -Welded as opposed to hinged. I haven't heard a single person yet who wants it fastened together with hardware. -Mounting location. Specifically, how rigid/effective specific mounting strategies are. We certainly are concerned about that too. Initial testing with the prototype shows that the 2 stud area is robust, but we have not delved into any comprehensive testing yet. Just to put a little perspective on it though: These points were designed to take load from the stock triangulation bars. The length of the studs seems to indicate that they designed them with the assumption that aftermarket companies would utilize them for this purpose. Additionally, TRD has utilized this mounting point for their very own strut bar (although STI opted to use the strut mounts). We'll get there, but we're just not at that point yet. -Price. We really want this to MSRP at or below $150. As always, we will maximize performance and minimize price, but not at the sacrifice of quality or aesthetics. Sometimes it makes our job very difficult, but that's when we do our best work. I'd like to use the hood struts as a reference; we were able to produce a product that is higher quality (fit, finish AND function), entirely American made, substantially outperforms the competition, and at a similar price. It sounds impossible, it really does. But we did it, we do it, and we're going to keep doing it. -OEM appearance. If the final design is intended to function with the stock triangulation bars, it might be nice if the bar appeared like it was stock too. We typically don't do super "blingy" stuff, but that is neither right nor wrong. We will go the route that our customers want! -Replacement triangulation bars. We hear you, and we would love to hear more! Lots of people are interested in having matching replacements, even if there is little to no performance benefit (not necessarily true, I'm just saying worst case scenario). We're also still interested to hear how many people want the triangulation bars integrated, even if it means raising the MSRP (again worst case scenario) and offering a product that a couple of other companies kind of already offer. -Pre-load adjustment. Typically adjusting preload is most useful on older vehicles that have experienced a lot of chassis deflection already in order to get the brace to even fit. It does raise cost a fairly significant amount, and we'll be working on determining if it is necessary at all. -Branding/aesthetic features. We really don't want to get ahead of ourselves just yet, so hit us with your ideas. RazBRZ had mentioned an optional metal logo like on our hood struts, that's good thinking! Keep em coming! -Length of studs. Replacing them to install a strut bar would suck. I know the maximum material thickness I can use for a bracket while still maintaining safe and effective thread engagement, so that is a limiting factor (especially when thinking about making this out of aluminum). As mentioned before I believe these are designed to be intentionally long to facilitate aftermarket use. -Weight. I think we can all agree that we'd like to keep any unnecessary weight to a minimum. BUT, adding a few ounces to make something more beautiful might be acceptable? -Fitment. Fitment with other aftermarket parts and stock parts. Being able to keep this low profile (more effective, stronger, lighter, less bulbous) can be difficult when trying to accommodate to other parts. Right now I can say that we can clear the noise generator, but not the AC line with the prototype. Some other braces you can currently buy will eventually damage the AC line from abrasion. If we ran with the current design, we're thinking a compromise in order to keep the design low profile will either be a clip or sheath to protect the line, as damaging it and potentially venting refrigerant is not an option. Other designs make the strut bar mount much higher in order to minimize rubbing, which is ugly to some, and adds weight higher up in the vehicle. Also, we will try and maximize fitment with aftermarket parts, but some things just won't be possible (supercharger most likely won't clear). -Aluminum. I'll be looking into cost vs weight vs performance of a few options. Off the top of my head I've been worried about being able to produce a strong enough bracket that still safely bolts to the stud on top of the stock triangulation bar. That's nothing a little FEA can't solve though ;) -Other Stuffs. Shankenstein: I think Matt answered most of your question after seeing how vague my first post was. The quick and dirty deflection test was jacking the car up on the passenger side at the factory jacking point on the pinch weld until the tire was 1 inch off the ground. And just to put a number to the picture, the maximum deflection (unloaded vs no STB or triangulation bars) was 0.081in. This was determined using our Faro Arm and a program that allows us to directly digitize into Solidworks. I then overlaid them together. I had planned on doing a more dedicated post about testing after I used a few more methods. Btw, I love your work and what you're doing for the community :) Mottor: Even when I was a teenager I have always been passionate about intake and exhaust manifold design, it's honestly one of my favorite things in the world. There are some pretty awesome developments coming out as far as exhaust manifolds go. And like Matt said, we're pretty darn good at exhaust stuff. I honestly can't say when we're going to start doing exhaust for the twins (interpret that verbiage however you want) ;). I hope you can tell that we've read every single post so far. We always do. Everyone who has contributed so far did a great job and has provided something valuable to us. This post got a bit longer than I would have liked, but I just get so excited about this stuff, especially when I get to do it with TONS of other car guys. Thank you all so much, and KEEP POSTING! Chase Engineering |
I like this.
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Personally I would prefer plain black, no logo. I appreciate from a marketing point of view this might not be the best option for GrimmSpeed. I have the Perrin intake fitted and have put black tape around the tube over the logo. I have tried to peel it off to no avail. I prefer the look of a plain under bonnet/hood, not cluttered with 1/2 dozen different brand names. I really really like the look! Stark functionally. Quote:
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