F/I Blowing motors facts

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by totopo

Why are you guys derailing the thread? why are you trying to get moderators to close this thread? Is purposefully trolling allowed? Is it allowed only if you are active and friendly with the moderators?

If you have nothing to add, stop replying, and maybe this post will go away. I really hope moderators don't close this thread.

huh? It was a serious question as I needed help. And I don't think I am the one who derailed this thread, nope, that was done some time ago.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by go_a_way1

Yeah I had the TRD factory roll option added, It was expensive (cuz its TRD I guess ) But it helps keep the OEM rims from rubbing during big bumps. Fitment of the OEM rims is good, but I wish I went with a diffrent offset. You also need coilovers for them to fit, It a good thing my car came with offical scion coilovers.

This made me laugh so hard

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by orangespark

I agree with what this person said. What Justin was trying to say is beefier rods would have helped a lot. I'm new to this and learning on the side about material properties but I'm always on the forums reading about people going F/I and how some people are having a hard time.
Our shop mechanic at work has a 328 (Twin turbo) currently and has been boosting up the turbo compression on his engine for quite a while. He feels very safe doing it on stock. That engine was designed to be F/I.
What I'm trying to say is, whoever is working on pushing the boundaries CSG_Mike, etc. Props to you guys. In terms of learning, this forums is awesome. But as my only car, I don't i'll be able to go F/I on this car. Critical info provided by Justin is useful.
Also, I was reading someone else's thread and he dissected the FA20 and found the build quality sub-par. Lots of sharp edges, etc. Not sure if that ties into this.

With a moderate power increase, you will, most likely, be okay.

Companies like Edelbrock, Jackson Racing, and Vortech don't stay in business by blowing up cars. At their kits' manufacturer supplied levels of power, I wouldn't expect a significant reduction in engine life, with typical (not racing) driving conditions.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

With a moderate power increase, you will, most likely, be okay.
Has not been proven....



Originally Posted by Benschneider06
A person in my local 86 club recently threw a rod in his FR-S.

Car had 38k miles when it blew and he had just put Mobile 1 Extended Performance 15,000 mile rated oil in his car at 37k miles. So only 1000 miles in. The car had a tune and mild bolt ons. Never tracked but driven hard.

He claims it was a combination of heat and the low oil weight (0W-20) that caused the oil to break down and not lubricate....thus causing it to throw a rod.

I thought 0W-20 was the recommended oil from Subaru...?

I just put the same oil in my car yesterday... so what do you guys think?



Companies like Edelbrock, Jackson Racing, and Vortech don't stay in business by blowing up cars. At their kits' manufacturer supplied levels of power, I wouldn't expect a significant reduction in engine life, with typical (not racing) driving conditions.

People running Vortech's have lost there motor, and Jackson Racing and a whole lot of other companies to. Read about it here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...25&postcount=4 SMH

[Chrisgalactic]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

People running Vortech's have lost there motor.

Not to interfere (I'm interfering) but that statement is questionable simply because people w/ stock fa20s have also lost their motors so blame Toyota right? Plus Blaming Vortech or any company with their product for what in most cases is operator error is kind of asinine considering that we dnt know how they treated the engine. They might have reved it to 3k they might have reved to 9k who knows. Im sure some products come out with issues (nothings perfect) but its kind of silly to say everyone with Vortech FI is going to lose there motor (or implying) anyone with FI has that possibility to blow there engine I think that is a fact. (Lawyered) ha jk just my opinion

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

With what you said in it. Yes, the more power you create, the more stresses involved and the greater likelihood of catastrophic failure...we get it.

You're still not addressing the points made.

rod failure does NOT necessarily infer an inherent weakness of the rods, nor does it mean that at a given power level they will fail.

That IS what the op stated. I'm sorry but it is. He said, people need to shut up about the tunes and understand that any F/I needs upgraded rods because they are too weak.

Well, that hasn't meted out in a majority of cases. So he got called out on it.

Should you upgrade your rods in F/I on a FA20? absolutely. If you're planning on getting the most out of your engine upgrade the rods, get forged pistons, slightly lower the C/R...etc...

Is there a greater risk involved in using F/I with stock internals? Yes..

There's a greater risk using stock internals with an E85 tune, or a stage II 93 tune for that matter.

Should everyone fore go making sure they get a good tune and upgrade their internals if they're going F/I? NO, it's been proven in many cases to not be necessary even beyond 300 whp.

Should they go into it with their eyes shut thinking they're going to get 100K miles out of a used motor after running 15+ psi of boost at 450 whp on E85? Absolutely not, and anyone who does that is a fool who SHOULD be parted from the money he's going to have to spend to replace his shit.

I'll tell you one thing that I DO know...A bad tune will cause catastrophic failure a lot sooner than a good tune on E85 at 350WHP will because of stock rods...

Jaden

p.s. I don't think the twins are the best cars ever... I DO think that they are the best bang for your buck new car for DIY tuners that want high performance newer cars for the least amount of money and the most elbow grease...

Do you think element tuning is a reputable source?

"The Connecting Rods. The Achilles heal to our beloved OEM FA20 motors have been the OEM connecting rods. While these rods are perfectly suited for OEM hp levels, when the power increases above 300 and RPM exceeds 7500 they are no longer reliable."
http://elementtuning.com/competition...r-wrx-fa20dit/

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by Chrisgalactic

Not to interfere (I'm interfering) but that statement is questionable simply because people w/ stock fa20s have also lost their motors so blame Toyota right? Plus Blaming Vortech or any company with their product for what in most cases is operator error is kind of asinine considering that we dnt know how they treated the engine. They might have reved it to 3k they might have reved to 9k who knows. Im sure some products come out with issues (nothings perfect) but its kind of silly to say everyone with Vortech FI is going to lose there motor (or implying) anyone with FI has that possibility to blow there engine I think that is a fact. (Lawyered) ha jk just my opinion

It was said "With a moderate power increase, you will, most likely, be okay." (Even though that's like saying I'm just a little bit pregnant) that has not been proven. so I posted below a post telling the story of the broken not tracked tuned with mild bolt ons fa20 that chunked a rod as a reference.


Also it was said that "Companies like Edelbrock, Jackson Racing, and Vortech don't stay in business by blowing up cars. At their kits' manufacturer supplied levels of power, I wouldn't expect a significant reduction in engine life, with typical (not racing) driving conditions."


I simply pointed out their have been some fa20s running a vortech that failed. Not blaming anything or anyone I just wonder if the vortech owner got a long insignificant reduction in engine life of his FA20. It might have had 300k on it for all I know.

Now that that's cleared up I would like to say I can agree with your statement

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by totopo

Do you think element tuning is a reputable source?
"The Connecting Rods. The Achilles heal to our beloved OEM FA20 motors have been the OEM connecting rods. While these rods are perfectly suited for OEM hp levels, when the power increases above 300 and RPM exceeds 7500 they are no longer reliable."
http://elementtuning.com/competition...r-wrx-fa20dit/

Do you think element tuning is a reputable source?
This is not a fact its a question!!!!

Of course not they only tested a race motor 10000 miles, and a 9000rpm rev limited engine is weak sauce. Everyone knows you at least need 12300 rpm to make 300hp n/a. (that's with NOS) They Spent 1000s of dollars and 1000s of hours to study and develop the fa20. Some guys do that by themselves in a week here. I once heard that the stock rods are so strong Element replaces them on their builds because they feel guilty. Something about the rods were made by Zeus himself.


SO I don't want to hear another thing about that fly by night group that calls a warehouse a shop, quit changing the subject. I lost some serious IQ points answering this and it all your fault Mister... (This spot is reserved for big ass memes that I think people will laugh at and if you use them it makes your whole point like a story book)


Huh, what


Oh sorry TOTOPO I thought you were talking to me, my bad just forget what I said.

[SkAsphalt]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Now that that's cleared up I would like to say I can agree with your statement

you, go away. You are not helping anyone on this forum.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by SkAsphalt

you, go away. You are not helping anyone on this forum.

Several people will disagree with you, I guess you didn't read from the beginning either...... so here's the short version so you can leave
Originally Posted by totopo
Do you think element tuning is a reputable source?
"The Connecting Rods. The Achilles heal to our beloved OEM FA20 motors have been the OEM connecting rods. While these rods are perfectly suited for OEM hp levels, when the power increases above 300 and RPM exceeds 7500 they are no longer reliable."
http://elementtuning.com/competition...r-wrx-fa20dit/

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Several people will disagree with you, I guess you didn't read from the beginning either...... so here's the short version so you can leave
Originally Posted by totopo
Do you think element tuning is a reputable source?
"The Connecting Rods. The Achilles heal to our beloved OEM FA20 motors have been the OEM connecting rods. While these rods are perfectly suited for OEM hp levels, when the power increases above 300 and RPM exceeds 7500 they are no longer reliable."
http://elementtuning.com/competition...r-wrx-fa20dit/

If that had actually been what you said, then there wouldn't be umpteen pages here.

No what you said was, rods suck, tunes don't matter...rods are gonna fail...shut up about bad tunes...

When multiple people are running over 300WHP without issue but there are some rod failures at 200+ whp, there is either a quality control issue or the rod failures are likely due to something else.

So telling people to not talk about the easiest way to fuck up your shit (bad tunes) is counter productive...

That's why and the ONLY reason why you've caught so much shit in this thread...

Should anyone planning on running over 300whp upgrade to forged internals, including higher quality rods? Absolutely...

Should anyone doing anything but driving a stock car not make sure the tunes they use are reputable? Absolutely...

Should people stop talking about bad tunes being a possible and LIKELY cause of failures... fuck no...

Jaden

[ocelot27]

Reading this thread backwards is really really stressing my brain.

[go_a_way1]

Originally Posted by SkAsphalt

you, go away. You are not helping anyone on this forum.

I am go away I thought I was helpful

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by Jaden

If that had actually been what you said, then there wouldn't be umpteen pages here.

No what you said was, rods suck, tunes don't matter...rods are gonna fail...shut up about bad tunes...

QUOTE
"Please please please for the love of whatever you love, stop blaming the tunes....If a rod went its most likely not the tune if you have a huge hole in your piston it could be the tune but it could also be mechanical. Faulty fueling like a bad pump bad injectors. Please find the source before placing blame it's the right thing to do"


No where in any of my post does it say this: "tunes don't matter...rods are gonna fail...shut up about bad tunes..."


If that's how some one takes it put your big boy pants on and come back to the table and talk like adaults..


I will be the first to say a BAD tune can blow your motor theres no question about it its true I agree, hell the tuners tell you that.


But if you have a weak rod and a perfect tune then it will still blow just because the motor blew you cant say it was the tune automatically .And you know people do


If there's no knock and your not super lean or cam timing jacked you cant automatically say it was the tune. It could have been mechanical.


Then I ask :Please find the source before placing blame it's the right thing to do. I will be the first to dime a tuner if I know for a fact with evidence his poor judgment or lack of knowledge cost me thousands of dollars. I will be leaving there with a new engine or a pocket full of teeth I guarantee it. And you better believe I will let everyone under the sun know he jacked my motor and post the proof to back it up. so they don't go thru what I am


And to be fair if I trashed the tuner like some people trash tuners on here I would expect to be sued for defamation of character. I will go one step further I wish to hell the tuners would fight back and stand up for themselves they put there necks out every time a new client comes in there shop. tuners don't know what the hell has been done to it before they go and try to please the customer. And if it blows their is a big chance they are stuck paying thousands for trying to put 300 bucks worth of food on the table for their family. I've seen it first hand.

some one gets a tune drives 10000 miles and the motor lets go and that night on the web my motor blew that damn tune blew me up
Its not right and you know it

When multiple people are running over 300WHP without issue but there are some rod failures at 200+ whp, there is either a quality control issue or the rod failures are likely due to something else. agree

So telling people to not talk about the easiest way to fuck up your shit (bad tunes) is counter productive...
Again that was never said

That's why and the ONLY reason why you've caught so much shit in this thread...I disagree I caught in a tremendous amount of crap for calling out people who are blatantly full of crap and have no idea whats coming out of their mouth and people got butt hurt

Should anyone planning on running over 300whp upgrade to forged internals, including higher quality rods? Absolutely...

Should anyone doing anything but driving a stock car not make sure the tunes they use are reputable? Absolutely...

Should people stop talking about bad tunes being a possible and LIKELY cause of failures... fuck no...
And that is where half the problem is you have half of the people talking smack who don't know anything about tuning and diagnosing a failure so they listen to the next idiot and jump on a band wagon.


I agree with everything but the word likely. I think it should be confirmed before its blowed out all over the net. you can harm a mans business quickly saying stuff that is not true, even if you find out a day later its to late the damage is done to the tuner.


I don't blame you for the misquotes or anyone else this thread has gotten so far off the point I even have to go back and check what was said and originally wrote thanks to the knuckleheads who tried to prove their point by changing the question to make it fit there bs answer.





Jaden

Jaden I respect your point of view all I ask is you try seeing thru my eyes also I can respect it if you don't agree