BRZ and competitor discussion (CSB)

[Re_Invention]

Hi Gang,

Wild - my last login was 9-14-2013! HAH!

So I made this thread a few years ago: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37611

After that thread I test drove a 2013 Volkswagen GTI Wolfsburg edition four door with DSG and was sold on it. Since then I've gotten married and are starting to spawn our first broodling. Hooray! But priorities are changing.

Primarily down-sizing. From 3 motorcycles to 1. From 3 cars to 2. So now I'm back to shopping and want to bounce some ideas off fellow enthusiasts and maybe get schooled on some twin's knowledge that I've missed out on over the past 2 years.

Firstly I love the Twins and have been on the fence more times than I care to admit but I have not pulled the trigger on one and that never bothered me. I love the idea of the car but am not convinced it earns my money. But with priorities changing maybe my outlook has changed, too. So here we are two years later looking at them again.

Where I'm coming from: 2013 GTI Wolfsburg with DSG and 2000 Honda S2000 with several track-oriented goodies.

Here they are (with a Miata for good measure!):



I'm looking primarily to consolidate two into one and have a do-it-all car.

This GTI is awesome and hard to beat. No mods, just used a VAG-COM cable to enable full stability/traction defeat and my wife has been having a ball with it on the autox with some hot hatch trail-braking butt swinging fun. It was my daily car when I was still a trainee at work and put on 20k miles per year. Completely comfortable, practical, good mileage, affordable maintenance, good fun. But now I drive it about once a week/60 miles for work. She currently has 42k miles and drives like new. This is an awesome do-it-all car but feel like if I only get one choice; I want more fun-factor. Plus the wife has since declined from joining for any motorsport activities.

2000 Honda S2000 is one of the best things to come from Japan. Period. She has many mods, the best one being an AEM EMS tune for mid-range torque. I love this car when I'm dodging cones, I hate it anywhere else. I'm a little too big for her at 6'1+, 220lbs, size 14 shoe with a crap back that needs to sit UP right. My wife and I like to do weekend day-trips in something other than our little suv. The S2000 sucks at it...

Enter the new challengers:

1) BMW 228i - what a great little Bimmer! I haven't been able to find a dealership with a 6 speed manual in stock but those seats and the drive is fantastic (non THP). European Delivery puts it at ~$32,500 & maintenance is worry free. The deal breaker: I at the sight of them. They look cool in photos but terribly proportioned in life. Reminds me of the 318ti in the worst way possible. No offense to owners, it's all eye of the beholder. Would need to be in black, will cost the upper end of the budget, will learn to 'deal with it'.. much like the BRZ - I like but don't love it.

2) CPO 987 Porsche Cayman - I last drove one 2 years ago. This is the only true BRZ competitor in my opinion. The lines of the 987 still make me swoon. Much like the BRZ, this car makes me remember why I like cars. With a kiddo on the way.. maybe that's important? Keeps perspective? But it's as tight as the S2000 and just as harsh to drive in. I love the look and I love the thought of owning it - not sure I'll like it as much in practice after a month plus a strict two seater is least preferred. Maybe the BRZ's compromise will keep my sanity intact.

3) Golf R/GTI PP - I had the pleasure of getting a ride along on the Ring with a hot from the press Mk7 Golf R last year. The speed around the track (8 min lap) matched that of a 997 turbo, it is simply a fast car. It is just out of the price range, too. The new GTI is too similar to what I have, it's a costly upgrade from a golf to a golf and hardly feels like a Sunday driver.

Wild Card: keep GTI and upgrade the S2000 to a 996 Porsche 911

I love 911's and I love the 996 gen.
I'll see myself out.

Love the sound, the smell, the feel. We've had a 996 in the family before and I simply fell in love with the car. Especially a '99 which has just a slightly more mechanical than later years. It'd be a perfect "upgrade" to the S2000. If only it wasn't so similar to the S2000 with regards to dreadful day-tripping - kind of kills the whole point. Plus the increase in consumable expenses & 'uh oh' moments like IMS/RMS/track off's/etc have me sweatin' the costs. The more I think of the nursery we are setting in the next room over the more this option gives me anxiety.

Some other cars I'd thought of and looked into are C6 corvette (test drove one today) and a B8 Audi S5. Both used options, both relatively affordable & reliable options. The S5 is like an AWD 6 speed Acura TL - hard to find with modest miles for a reasonable price. The vette is quick but the muscle doesn't charm me like it used to. Similar to the Cayman, sucks it's strictly a two seater.

Tomorrow I'm going to drive a '15/16 BRZ premium. I've test driven the FR-S about five times and spent an afternoon lapping this BRZ on the Nurburgring. I always left smiling but never smitten.



Currently it's a duke-out between the 228i and the BRZ.

Please talk me out of the BRZ - are the fuel pump crickets and tail light condensation still a 'thing' with these cars? Any new notorious Twin's problems I need to be familiar with? Any rumors regarding the '17 mid-model update I should hold tight for? Do the brakes hold up well to (ab)use? Notorious transmission grinds/failed synchros/etc.?

Lastly, any input on the cars mentioned or suggestions for other vehicles to check out are entirely appreciated. I'd love to read a BRZ and 228i shootout. One of the rag's did FR-S, Mustang Eco and 228i shootout and dumped all over the BMW which I thought strange as I experience the grievances during my test drives. I also didn't like the Ecoboost Mustang I test drove and disagreed with their assessment of it.

We have a brand new family hauler and I work from home so used options can be considered. Budget is $33k>. Must be fun, must make for a decent "Sunday" driver, preferred 4 seater.

A Lotus Evora 2+2 is my #1 choice but sadly out of the budget for the next couple of years

Thanks for any input!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Please talk me out of the BRZ - are the fuel pump crickets and tail light condensation still a 'thing' with these cars? Any new notorious Twin's problems I need to be familiar with? Any rumors regarding the '17 mid-model update I should hold tight for? Do the brakes hold up well to (ab)use? Notorious transmission grinds/failed synchros/etc.?!

Yes and they don't mean jack shit, cosmetic issues.

Not really

Don't hold your breath

Pads and fluid cover most people, budget a few hundred bucks for that.
This guy recently did a cost breakdown on his BBK, pays for itself in 38 track events with how he was using pads:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608

Rarities.

My car's at 42k miles, some track, some autocross, camber plates were the second best upgrade I've gotten so far (first being brake pads) and my only problem of note has been failed coil packs, at about $100 per pop and less than an hours worth of wrenching to swap, one replaced so far and two more on their way out, only rears it's head on track so I won't order replacements until I schedule my next track day.

Best of luck, the only alternative all-rounder I'd consider as a 2 door built in the last 10 years would be an RX-8, but that's not a recommendation, only an opinion.

Edit: In your thread two years ago you complained about clutch feel, there's some guys around here who have tweaked it a fair bit to get more feedback, with any luck they'll show up.

[Speed2th]

My wife only rode in my brz in less 10 times. It is hard for her to get in and out because the seat is too low and she hates the stiff suspension. It is my toy anyway. My 2015 have cricket but no other issues like other people complained. Crick noise is better than wife complaining, and the noise is only noticeable when I parked in the garage with stereo off. Transmission worked great with oem fluid no Grind (8k miles so far).

What about e90 m3 ?

[Fastbrew]

Get a Ford RS

[chaoskaze]

Go with Wild Card. Or get the Golf R

OR just keep s2k, anyone I know that sold their s2k always regret it even if their new car is faster/better/tougher/stronger. xD It just hits that sweet spot like no others.

[humdizzle]

have you ever driven an e46 m3?

[DarkSunrise]

I currently have a mk6 GTI and FR-S. I primarily track the FR-S, and daily drive it on sunny days and weekends. The GTI is the practical family roadtrip car that I don't mind driving into pothole-ridden environments and on bad-weather days.

I'm not a big fan of having a single "jack-of-all-trades" car. I used to have an STI hatch that was supposed to do everything. The problem is, once you make a car good for the track (track pads, suspension, bushings, oil cooler, etc.) it pretty much sucks in daily driving and on roadtrips.

That said, if I HAD to consolidate my FR-S and GTI into a single car, these are the ones I'd consider:

New
- Ford Focus RS
- VW Golf R / Audi S3
- Suby STI sedan
- F80 BMW M3 sedan
- Caddy ATS-V sedan

Used
- E90 BMW M3 sedan
- E36 BMW M3 sedan
- Mitsu Evo 8/9
- Suby STI hatch
- Caddy CTS-V wagon

All of those cars are moderately practical (enough to serve as a family car), but can also hold their own on the track with a few mods. They're all somewhat heavy and will go through consummables pretty fast, but there's no real way around that for an all-in-one car. If I were you though, I'd keep the GTI and upgrade the S2000 to something a bit more comfortable for the street. Maybe a new Mustang GT PP or C6/C7.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Yes and they don't mean jack shit, cosmetic issues.

Not really

Don't hold your breath

Pads and fluid cover most people, budget a few hundred bucks for that.
This guy recently did a cost breakdown on his BBK, pays for itself in 38 track events with how he was using pads:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608

Rarities.

Down and dirty - love it.

[funwheeldrive]

E90 m3 or Boss 302

[pinski]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Enter the new challengers:

1) BMW 228i - what a great little Bimmer! I haven't been able to find a dealership with a 6 speed manual in stock but those seats and the drive is fantastic (non THP). European Delivery puts it at ~$32,500 & maintenance is worry free. The deal breaker: I at the sight of them. They look cool in photos but terribly proportioned in life. Reminds me of the 318ti in the worst way possible. No offense to owners, it's all eye of the beholder. Would need to be in black, will cost the upper end of the budget, will learn to 'deal with it'.. much like the BRZ - I like but don't love it.

The 228i isn't that great of a car, I think you'll be supremely disappointed if you go this route. 235i is a different story, however.

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

2) CPO 987 Porsche Cayman - I last drove one 2 years ago. This is the only true BRZ competitor in my opinion. The lines of the 987 still make me swoon. Much like the BRZ, this car makes me remember why I like cars. With a kiddo on the way.. maybe that's important? Keeps perspective? But it's as tight as the S2000 and just as harsh to drive in. I love the look and I love the thought of owning it - not sure I'll like it as much in practice after a month plus a strict two seater is least preferred. Maybe the BRZ's compromise will keep my sanity intact.

Dooo eeeettttt! I love 987s. Sometimes I still kick myself for not getting that lovely 987 Cayman S I found for a great price. The prospect of owning an older Porsche with its potential repair bills made me pee my pants, though.

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Wild Card: keep GTI and upgrade the S2000 to a 996 Porsche 911

I love 911's and I love the 996 gen.
I'll see myself out.

Change that 6 to a 7 and you'll have my vote. Hate the egg yolk headlights of the 996, so do yourself (and my eyes) a favor and grab the 997! Classic styling, nicer interior, less prone to IMS failure. It's the connoisseur's modernish Porsche . Nice examples can be had for mid-$30k now.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by Speed2th

What about e90 m3 ?

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

E90 m3 or Boss 302

Mmm.... Boss...

CPO e90's cars are out of my budget. I might consider a private party sale. Need to learn more about common failures and typical running costs.

Originally Posted by Fastbrew

Get a Ford RS

Are they out yet?

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

OR just keep s2k, anyone I know that sold their s2k always regret it even if their new car is faster/better/tougher/stronger. xD It just hits that sweet spot like no others.

I hear the same story, too. But it's time to move on and let the S2K chapter end. Too many cool cars, not enough garage space to enjoy them.

Originally Posted by humdizzle

have you ever driven an e46 m3?

Only sat passenger. It's going the way of the e36, too few modest mile cars for decent coin. I looked at replacing the S2K with one for a couple of months back.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If I were you though, I'd keep the GTI and upgrade the S2000 to something a bit more comfortable for the street. Maybe a new Mustang GT PP or C6/C7.

Yeah that was my test drive yesterday with a C6, cash in hand ready to buy a clean car with under 45k miles. In the end the seller and I couldn't agree on price and it made me recognize how little I value the corvette. Great pick up at $15-18k, not a $20k+ thrill. There's something too crude about it.

Originally Posted by pinski

Change that 6 to a 7 and you'll have my vote. Hate the egg yolk headlights of the 996, so do yourself (and my eyes) a favor and grab the 997! Classic styling, nicer interior, less prone to IMS failure. It's the connoisseur's modernish Porsche . Nice examples can be had for mid-$30k now.

Nope. Never! I love the 996 with IMS failures, plastic interior, questionable looks and all. Those headlights just remind me of my favorite meal of the day.

[why?]

Keep the GTI. There are threads here about people trying to fit baby seats in the 86 and it simply doesn't work. It is possible to fit front facing child seats though, but that is tight.

Honestly though if you want to trade both in it sounds like a WRX would be a good compromise. I was huge on the 228i as well for a while, but the extra cost, the complete lack of availability for a test drive and the fact that bmw pretty much did everything they could to make the suspension as bad as possible convinced me it was not worth it.

Keep the GTI and look for a high mileage something interesting in your area. You can get 3000 GT VR4's with 6 figure mileage that are well kept for not much money, and there are a ton of cars like that. Most Infiniti's values drop like a rock in a few years and they are really great vehicles. So many good performance values to be had if you just want to have an interesting car for not too much money.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by why?

Keep the GTI. There are threads here about people trying to fit baby seats in the 86 and it simply doesn't work. It is possible to fit front facing child seats though, but that is tight.

Honestly though if you want to trade both in it sounds like a WRX would be a good compromise. I was huge on the 228i as well for a while, but the extra cost, the complete lack of availability for a test drive and the fact that bmw pretty much did everything they could to make the suspension as bad as possible convinced me it was not worth it.

Keep the GTI and look for a high mileage something interesting in your area. You can get 3000 GT VR4's with 6 figure mileage that are well kept for not much money, and there are a ton of cars like that. Most Infiniti's values drop like a rock in a few years and they are really great vehicles. So many good performance values to be had if you just want to have an interesting car for not too much money.

An STI crossed my mind a few months back, too. Last WRX I test drove turned me off from the model - wasn't my cuppa tea. Maybe I can squeeze in a new WRX test ride today, too. My experience from the last gen was disappointing. I thought its acceleration and max V were the only things going for it. I didn't like that bus-driver high seating position on flat seats, didn't care much for how the power came on (peaky), and didn't care for how the car felt at corner entry/mid corner. I know the interior has been updated - let's see about the rest. STI's are a bit too rich for my blood and I'm hesitant to buy an STI/EVO second hand.

Dealership visit in 2.5 hours.

I really like the 228i package. It checks a lot of boxes for me... I just can't stomach the sight of it! It'd need to be all black and seen only at night. At $37k MSRP I think it's horrendously overpriced but at $31k ED price with a few options I think it's priced right. Savings on a $26kish WRX or $24kish for a BRZ buy a lot of tires, oil changes and air fresheners, however.

Might keep the status quo after all... Updates coming tonight!

[Re_Invention]

Test drove a premium '15 BRZ then base '16 WRX then the BRZ again.

I had the wife sit in the premium and limited BRZ's which were both in Ice Silver parked next to each other - convenient! These were both 2015 models. I gotta admit, I'm not a fan of the plastic fiber weave in the dash - I remember it being a solid silver color.. what happened? Anyways, she felt the Limited money difference should go towards wheels/tires. Done!

So the drives.. first drove the BRZ with the salesman and re-familiarized myself with the car. I forgot how easy it is to drive. I also forgot how tight the interior is. I definitely has a Miata/S2K-top-up claustrophobia with similar visibility. Great steering as before but I recant my old reviews on the FR-S brake pedal. Maybe I had a bad sample because today's pedal was the tits. Lots of feel/feedback and pressure from high in the pedal travel all throughout. Love the brakes. Hated the clutch - must be that helper spring that makes it pop part way through the release. Shift action was better than I remember. I remember it having a Fisher Price plastic notchyness but today it went relatively well into gears both up and down.

Our little route featured a couple of moderate speed turns. I didn't touch the nannies so no tail out fun but I remember how easy it was in the race car. I also don't remember my previous FR-S test drives having such a balanced suspension between firm body control and bump absorption - I was genuinely impressed with how well the car handled bumps/dips/cracks. It's like.. entry level BMW of days-gone-by good. All in all, it put a HUGE smile on my face. Back to the dealership we went.

Then it was the WRX's turn. A base 2016 model with 5 or 6 miles on it. Virgin as can be (and stayed that way). This time the wife jumped in the back with salesman shotgun.

Firstly, kudos to Subaru for not resting on their laurels with the WRX. This gen is heads and shoulders above the 2012/3 model I test drove a few years ago. The interior, the shifter, the power, the seats and the handling. It's a bonafide new generation.

Right, same route we took as with the BRZ. We let the car warm up and then worked out a couple of gears to 6,000 rpms. I still don't get WRXs. No fizz in the pants here. The power delivery leaves me hanging. I don't recall how bad the previous gen was but I remember voicing similar criticism. Too much, too fast and over too soon. It's torque from 3,000 to 5,000 rpms then shifting. I bet short-shifting the car is the most enjoyable way to drive it....

The shift throws a little longer than the BRZ but not by much and had slightly less feel - blind fold me and I'd like to think I could tell the difference but could just be in my head. Maybe I was already used to it but the clutch in the WRX felt more linear in its release - I preferred it over the BRZ's pop action. I thought the WRX brakes had adequate feel - maybe it's due to the longer leg angle position in the BRZ but the pedal didn't feel as pleasurable to modulate in the WRX. Steering felt good - it gave feedback and had a little weight to it. The D flat bottom shape reminds me of my GTI. Now the chassis and springs are definitely turned up. Initial turn in feels sooo much better than how I remember it. That being said, it felt stiff - not necessarily compliant, just stiff. Corner entry and mid-corner control were much easier to feel through but the car was just a bit more crashy than the BRZ. The WRX evolved into a much better car with fun BRZ like moments built in.

So we returned to the dealership, stared at both cars parked next to one another and discussed what we liked and didn't like. Then the wife and I took the BRZ out for a little longer spin, just the two of us. Prior to take off I asked her if she would watch, listen, feel for any difference in how the car took bumps compared to the sedan we were just in. In my head, and maybe I'm taking crazy pills, but the BRZ has a much more sophisticated approach to handling over the WRX - I don't know why and I don't know if that's quantifiable or even true. The WRX felt like over the counter coilovers and sway bars were thrown on and an alignment done. It almost feels immature in that way. The BRZ feels like a team of engineers with a big(ger) budget designed a great handling car from the ground up. Which they did. She claims my hypothesis is correct - likely confirmation bias, we'll have the ethics panel look into it.

Anyways, the missus liked the car, liked the feel of the car and saw the big s*** eating grin on my face while we drove it. So she's all for it.

After dinner and some time reflecting on it... I feel like I'm back in 2012 making that same decision. This time, instead of sweating the miles traveled every week for work and car comfort - I'm worrying about if a baby seat is going to fit in the car and if that will be something I will regret in a year or two. Deja Vu.

Over dinner the wife also brought up our memories in the S2K - it's a dear, sentimental machine on four wheels to us for sure. She supports the BRZ exchange but I suspect wants to keep both the GTI and S2K in the family.

I, on the other hand, really want to pull the trigger on the BRZ. It's just as fun as the S2000 while being 80% the car. I wish it had an extra inch in interior width, height and length. Alternatively I could also wish the WRX were more like the BRZ in the ride and comfort. And I can't believe I'm saying this but I prefer the lower HP output n/a FA of the BRZ over the boosted WRX because it builds the power well. I'm now relieved they didn't use the boosted FA in the BRZ (flame suit on!). Just 10% more power on that FA would go a long way in seat oompf. Or supercharge it, best of both worlds - right?

Lastly, I stupidly forgot my helmet at home so I will need to go back Saturday for a test fitting. If I fit comfortably with the lid on, I will count the dollars and work out a trade-in plan for a 2016 model. If I don't fit, I'll keep the S2000 and continue to build on it.




And before anyone suggests it again, the STI is simply beyond the budget. I asked the dealer about pricing during our WRX test drive and at $37k+ with nav on a base it is simply too much, so I didn't bother test driving something I don't intend to purchase.