Should Toyota's version of the FT-86 be badged a Toyota or Scion in North America?

[Aki]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Your premise is that it didn't sell because of the nameplate. You are wrong.

Huh? My premise is that if you're using sales as a gauge to measure whether a nameplate is bad (Scion), then you could do the same thing for Celica. I never said the nameplate led to bad sales, I'm saying a bad product led to bad sales which led to a not-so-strong nameplate. Not-so coincidentally, I'm also saying poor product lead to a decline in Scion sales.

It is a strong nameplate, far stronger than anything scion could muster.

Sorry, but simply saying it's a strong nameplate doesn't make it one. Scion TC blew the doors off of Celica sales last generation in total sales, hate the car as you may. 79k in 2006, 64k in 2007, 40k in 2008, it was a major seller until the downturn and the recall drama.

p.s. Did it really move 52k units in 2000? If regardless of anything else, it actually did that in it's first year of sale, that would go to show how damn good of a name plate it in fact is. Sounds sketchy though, not even the miata MX-5 moved those kind of numbers since it's first gen.

First you're saying I'm wrong for saying the bad nameplate led to bad sales (which I never said), now you're saying a strong nameplate lead to good sales? Even though sales tanked after the first year? The total sales throughout the lifecycle of a vehicle determines whether it's a success, not an initial spike. Go look up the sales numbers if you think it's "sketchy," it's not disputed.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Et tu Matty?

@the guy you quoted: Fun and FF don't belong in the same sentence. Its not even a drift thing, I've been a RWD nut since before I was even introduced to the culture. There's just something about being pullleed around I can't stand, not to mention understeering is about as fun as watching paint dry.

Eh, if it gets called a Celica, at least I can rest easy knowing it wasn't the Celica's heritage, fanbase, nor cult following that brought about the FT-86's conception, growth, and eventual birth. It was the AE86, its fans, and its cult following. If it gets called a Celica then its nothing but a marketing stunt, aimed at sales. Soulless.

[Dimman]

It's funny, I have a reversed reaction with Celicas than what I get with my Supra.

Mk3 Supra scenario (ask any Mk3 owner, any REAL Mk3 owner, heh, they've all had this conversation.)

Person: "What do you drive?"
Me: "Turbo Supra."
Person: "ZOMGWTFBBQ!"
Me: "Sigh... not that Supra."
Person (visible disdain on their face): "Oh." Walks away in contempt.

Celica scenario:

Me: "What do you drive?"
Person: "Celica."
Me: (visible disdain on my face): "Oh." Ready to walk away in contempt. Chick car, in my head...
Person: "Sigh... it's an Alltrac."
Me: "ZOMGWTFBBQ!"

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's funny, I have a reversed reaction with Celicas than what I get with my Supra.

Mk3 Supra scenario (ask any Mk3 owner, any REAL Mk3 owner, heh, they've all had this conversation.)

Person: "What do you drive?"
Me: "Turbo Supra."
Person: "ZOMGWTFBBQ!"
Me: "Sigh... not that Supra."
Person (visible disdain on their face): "Oh." Walks away in contempt.

Celica scenario:

Me: "What do you drive?"
Person: "Celica."
Me: (visible disdain on my face): "Oh." Ready to walk away in contempt. Chick car, in my head...
Person: "Sigh... it's an Alltrac."
Me: "ZOMGWTFBBQ!"

@1st scenario: Those are the people I laugh at and walk away from. FnF crowd, JZA80 is the only Supra that ever mattered. I know this because I was in that EXACT same scenario, as I used to own an Mk3...wish I still had it.

@2nd Scenario: Would totally happen....I hope to some day own a ST165 Alltrac.

[Toyota4Life]

Originally Posted by Aki

If you're citing terrible Scion sales as reason to not make the FT86 a Scion, then it makes just as little sense as to release it as a Celica.

Celica sales were terrible towards the end, which is why it died to begin with. In 2004 it sold only 8,214 of them, in its fourth model-year cycle (which is at the end of the generation, but not really that old). From 52,406 units sold in 2000, that's a huge drop that spells the death of the brand.

Hence Celica just isn't a strong name plate. Take the Supra--although it also died due to lackluster sales, it's had a dedicated following and a great reputation, which is why they're so expensive used. So in spite of the brand dying due to sales, the Supra name still has appeal. Unless you're a diehard Toyota fan, there isn't much branding appeal to a Celica.

I do agree with your point though that it'll do better as a Toyota, simply because you have a bigger dealer network to distribute/market the car.

I'm not citing Scion's poor sales. I'm citing the fact that many actual buyers for this car do NOT want it as a Scion and will take their money elsewhere if that comes to pass. The Celica's sales in its later years were also due to Toyota in their idiotic pursuit in killing all of their sports cars, not because the 7th gen was a bad car (It's a very good one). I hardly ever saw a Celica on the lots after 2003, nor did I ever see an advertisement. You can't sell what you don't make or let the public know about.

And there is PLENTY of brand awareness and appeal for the Celica name. It's one of Toyota's longest running names and is very iconic and well-known. Not to mention it's a stronger nameplate than all of Scion put together or any future crappy name like FRS they come up with.

[Toyota4Life]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Et tu Matty?

@the guy you quoted: Fun and FF don't belong in the same sentence. Its not even a drift thing, I've been a RWD nut since before I was even introduced to the culture. There's just something about being pullleed around I can't stand, not to mention understeering is about as fun as watching paint dry.

Eh, if it gets called a Celica, at least I can rest easy knowing it wasn't the Celica's heritage, fanbase, nor cult following that brought about the FT-86's conception, growth, and eventual birth. It was the AE86, its fans, and its cult following. If it gets called a Celica then its nothing but a marketing stunt, aimed at sales. Soulless.

I don't exactly get why the AE86 is so much more important than the Celica. It's a great car, but the Celica always out sold it, and it also has a long, storied heritage and one that is far longer than the AE86.

The Celica also was a RWD 2+2 seater like the AE86 and has been known for its drift appeal as well, so it's easy to argue that the FT86 is also a spiritual successor to the RWD Celicas, particularly the RA65. Surely reviving one of Toyota's storied nameplates is a better alternative than seeing this go to effing SCION of all things, which for some reason Toyota seems to want to do and completely ruin the car.

[Toyota4Life]

Originally Posted by Aki

Huh? My premise is that if you're using sales as a gauge to measure whether a nameplate is bad (Scion), then you could do the same thing for Celica. I never said the nameplate led to bad sales, I'm saying a bad product led to bad sales which led to a not-so-strong nameplate. Not-so coincidentally, I'm also saying poor product lead to a decline in Scion sales.



Sorry, but simply saying it's a strong nameplate doesn't make it one. Scion TC blew the doors off of Celica sales last generation in total sales, hate the car as you may. 79k in 2006, 64k in 2007, 40k in 2008, it was a major seller until the downturn and the recall drama.



First you're saying I'm wrong for saying the bad nameplate led to bad sales (which I never said), now you're saying a strong nameplate lead to good sales? Even though sales tanked after the first year? The total sales throughout the lifecycle of a vehicle determines whether it's a success, not an initial spike. Go look up the sales numbers if you think it's "sketchy," it's not disputed.

If we're going to compare sales and say that the tC's numbers make it a "stronger nameplate", then you should compare the Celica's sales globally from 1971-2006. Let's see the tC's sales then.

The Celica name is far stronger and easily identifed. Along with the Land Cruiser, Corolla, and Camry, Celica is one of Toyota's strongest names and still has a very loyal following. Scion's alpha-numeric garbage will never attain the heritage or recognition an actual name with meaning will. Ask any idiot what a Celica is and what a tC and I guarantee you more will ID the Celica.

[70NYD]

Aki plot the sales on a chart for the years and tell me when the line hits zero. Wanna talk marketing, there is the basics

[Matador]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

If it gets called a Celica then its nothing but a marketing stunt, aimed at sales.

And the only reason I think it should be a Celica. I want this mofo to sell like ice in the desert and make Toyota's man parts tingle and then wait patiently for the epic 2nd gen of this car and it's continuity into the distant future. Withing that Time I expect to see an MR-2 and/or a Supra. Let's not *****foot around this Toyota. Make it happen.

Being a great product will only go some of the way to concreting this. If they chose to draw on the heritage of a recognized nameplate then the Celica has it in spades, more than the Corolla AE86 could hope to muster. Should they chose to go another route, they will have a lot of push to make, and play on their whole previous lineup (which is in fact what I hope they do).

Regardless of the fact that the AE86 Corolla GT-S inspired this car, It isn't a corolla, it's not designed to be. This is a new Toyota sports car, a re-awakening so to speak, made to stoke the fire and invigorate passion. An entry level, FR, lightweight, sports coupe for the masses, pretty much like the MX-5 began as a roadster for the masses.

Originally Posted by Toyota4Life

And there is PLENTY of brand awareness and appeal for the Celica name. It's one of Toyota's longest running names and is very iconic and well-known. Not to mention it's a stronger nameplate than all of Scion put together or any future crappy name like FRS they come up with.

Thank you very much. Logic seems to be lost a bit on Aki. Not even going to pursue arguing anymore.

For the record, I reiterate; I'm not saying that it **should** be called a Celica. I'm saying that I have no problem if they do brand it as such and marketing it as a Celica is a FAR better proposition that branding it as a Scion (just. no.) or as a Corolla (wtfbbq?)

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Toyota4Life

If we're going to compare sales and say that the tC's numbers make it a "stronger nameplate", then you should compare the Celica's sales globally from 1971-2006. Let's see the tC's sales then.

The Celica name is far stronger and easily identifed. Along with the Land Cruiser, Corolla, and Camry, Celica is one of Toyota's strongest names and still has a very loyal following. Scion's alpha-numeric garbage will never attain the heritage or recognition an actual name with meaning will. Ask any idiot what a Celica is and what a tC and I guarantee you more will ID the Celica.

Another pet peeve of mine. Purpose of this shit is pure marketing. Acura decided to replace 'Integra' with 'RSX' because they felt the (proud and loyal) owners were not identifying strongly enough with the brand. When asked what they drove, they would say 'an Integra', not 'an Acura'.

This apparently pissed off the people that invented 'up-branding' Japanese cars, so they killed the customer's loyalty to what was a good product and tried to force them to devote that loyalty to the whole brand.

I bet the same thinking went on in Toyota North America, when they decided on Scion's naming system.

[Zaku]

Lol Like the first post said, If this branding causes so much problems then you should look to buying the Subie version instead XD but I really do hope it's a Toyota. Though if the Subaru is nice why not ? right hopefully they will be in a similar price range

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Zaku

Lol Like the first post said, If this branding causes so much problems then you should look to buying the Subie version instead XD but I really do hope it's a Toyota. Though if the Subaru is nice why not ? right hopefully they will be in a similar price range

We don't know yet... we can speculate that it will be similar price range... but Subie official haven't really said or shown anything other that recent GAIS. Hope Subie will show theirs soon (like TAS).

[Toyota4Life]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

And the only reason I think it should be a Celica. I want this mofo to sell like ice in the desert and make Toyota's man parts tingle and then wait patiently for the epic 2nd gen of this car and it's continuity into the distant future. Withing that Time I expect to see an MR-2 and/or a Supra. Let's not *****foot around this Toyota. Make it happen.

Being a great product will only go some of the way to concreting this. If they chose to draw on the heritage of a recognized nameplate then the Celica has it in spades, more than the Corolla AE86 could hope to muster. Should they chose to go another route, they will have a lot of push to make, and play on their whole previous lineup (which is in fact what I hope they do).

Regardless of the fact that the AE86 Corolla GT-S inspired this car, It isn't a corolla, it's not designed to be. This is a new Toyota sports car, a re-awakening so to speak, made to stoke the fire and invigorate passion. An entry level, FR, lightweight, sports coupe for the masses, pretty much like the MX-5 began as a roadster for the masses.



Thank you very much. Logic seems to be lost a bit on Aki. Not even going to pursue arguing anymore.

For the record, I reiterate; I'm not saying that it **should** be called a Celica. I'm saying that I have no problem if they do brand it as such and marketing it as a Celica is a FAR better proposition that branding it as a Scion (just. no.) or as a Corolla (wtfbbq?)

Toyota has an even more vested interest to call this car Celica than they realize. Toyota has been touting their reputation, quality rankings, etc. the past year after all these dumb recalls and SUA fiasco and have been advertising their sterling past to combat their not so rosy image lately. Reviving one of their past names from their glory days, especially at this juncture, is an insanely smart move.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Toyota4Life

Toyota has an even more vested interest to call this car Celica than they realize. Toyota has been touting their reputation, quality rankings, etc. the past year after all these dumb recalls and SUA fiasco and have been advertising their sterling past to combat their not so rosy image lately. Reviving one of their past names from their glory days, especially at this juncture, is an insanely smart move.

You know what? This could be excellent... I've mentioned this before, but with the engine position where it is, they could put in an H6 without messing too much with the handling. (Hell, Subaru hung the entire EG33 in front of the front axle and the SVX's handling didn't suck.)

Now what car in Toyota's sterling past could this remind anybody of? This hypothetical Celica, which at a later point in time could could be turned into a 'super' Celica with the addition of a 6 cylinder powerplant. Hmmm... whatever could I be talking about? Maybe give it a new front-end to distinguish it from the non-'super' version. A lightish-weight RWD Toyota 6 cylinder sports car with no turbo.

Celica ST 145 hp 2.0L (current un-modified FB20?)
Inexpensive, economical, volume car. By inexpensive I mean 'Even less money than they were originally talking about'. $18k-$20k

Celica GT-S 200 hp 2.0L Harder edged. The car most of us want. At the target price. 2800bs MAX!

Then after a year or two introduce:

Celica-Supra 240 hp 3.0L H6 (I think that is the number from Subaru's current 3.0L) With a minor re-style this could appeal to older crowd, smoother, but don't turn it into a marshmallow. Maybe an optional twin-clutch? Base price +$3k-$5k? 3100 lbs MAX! Lexus version? How would this price and performance compare with the fabled Mustang?

On a single platform this gives 3 very different cars that hit a huge potential market range. Plus it gives a potential product 'Ladder' within Toyota. It fits in with the past, and by using the Celica-Supra name, it re-introduces the Supra nameplate but reminds us turbo Supra owners that there were two generations before it was the hardcore turbo beast most know, and can justify its non-GTR performance that way.