PLM Long Tube Header

[2016 Camaro SS]

Originally Posted by Jesse@JDLAutodesign

It comes down to ethics...bottom line. Everyone has different values and expectations, and i've become perfectly ok with that. I'm perfectly ok with overseas parts. What i'm not ok with is saying they exist because you can't afford the real thing. You don't need to put a header on your car, you don't need to put new wheels or a lip kit on it. Being able to do so is already a luxury in itself. Anyone could easily save another month, or however long to buy the original if they valued ethics. So next time don't say you can't afford something you don't "need" anyways..just say you don't value ethics, innovation and integrity. I've come to expect that with most people these days anyways...well at least until the same principles effect them personally in a negative way.

If you guys knew just how cheap you can actually buy crap like PLM from the factories overseas, you would really see who's really gauging the market. We're talking WELL under $100 a header. I wish we could turn profits like that. Some of you have no idea what it really costs to build these when you're using material made in the USA, paying honest wages ($20+hr for skilled tig weldors), paying taxes, advertising, shop overhead, etc. There's not much left at the end of the day, hell i'm lucky if i can take a paycheck as an owner at the end of the day (and if i do it's well below minimum wage if you factor the hours in). Most small specialized shops do this for the passion, not the money. You take away that passion and companies like PLM don't have anything to rip off.

Anyways end of my rant, I feel for Nameless, PLM has done this to me before, it SUCKS. Back to customer orders so i can hopefully finish up my personal FR-S build this weekend that's taken me over 2 years to afford with all original parts!

I got to see it in PHX last time I was there in October but I think it was the empty engine bay? I have a trip scheduled to PHX in the beginning of May so I may stop by your shop and check it out if you made progress.

[sachu]

PLM hasn't done this to you. It is the mentality, a cultural shift has happened since the late 90s when manufacturing started moving overseas to leverage cheaper labor.

The end user makes the choice and drives the market, as always.

edit: am running a china header and intake (skunk2). did i get my monies worth, i think so. Would I make more power with a JDL header, maybe. Do I care enough to spend another 4-500$. no.

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

Originally Posted by sachu

PLM hasn't done this to you. It is the mentality, a cultural shift has happened since the late 90s when manufacturing started moving overseas to leverage cheaper labor.

The end user makes the choice and drives the market, as always.

edit: am running a china header and intake (skunk2). did i get my monies worth, i think so. Would I make more power with a JDL header, maybe. Do I care enough to spend another 4-500$. no.

I don't care about overseas parts. There are plenty of parts made overseas that are original (like your header and intake) I DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE PROBLEM WITH THAT.

PLM has purchased manifolds from me in the past, jigged and replicated them, so YES they have. Thats bullshit and i can't respect that. I don't have a problem with a company developing a product, prototyping it and then outsourcing it overseas for cheaper, i understand economics. There's a difference...a big one.

[sachu]

i hear you and yeah, is it against what's considered decency, for sure.

Can it be stopped? No. There is nothing you or anyone else's products that gets copied can do about it. Mainly cause there is very little that can be proved in a court of law, if there were laws that covered this sort of plagiarism, assuming it can be proved.

One alternative would be to dilute your own product by sourcing materials from outside the US or getting parts pre-fabbed elsewhere enmasse and then assembling/welding here. WOuld cut your costs down and you'd be able to price closer to drive copies out of the market.

Would that be against one of your current USP? Yeah.

I've buddies in audio industry and have built and sold audio amplifies myself and know its impossible to compete with overseas products, knockoffs, etc.

What one can build on is a strong product quality, excellent customer relationship and service and trust that it will be the deciding factor if you aren't willing to compromise on the "made in US" aspect.

Yes, I know the supply chain logistics of finding a reliable manufacturer for the pre-made stuff in itself is a challenge, especially with the language barier and not being able to have hands on control over it.

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by sachu

i hear you and yeah, is it against what's considered decency, for sure.

Can it be stopped? No. There is nothing you or anyone else's products that gets copied can do about it. Mainly cause there is very little that can be proved in a court of law, if there were laws that covered this sort of plagiarism, assuming it can be proved.

One alternative would be to dilute your own product by sourcing materials from outside the US or getting parts pre-fabbed elsewhere enmasse and then assembling/welding here. WOuld cut your costs down and you'd be able to price closer to drive copies out of the market.

Would that be against one of your current USP? Yeah.

I've buddies in audio industry and have built and sold audio amplifies myself and know its impossible to compete with overseas products, knockoffs, etc.

What one can build on is a strong product quality, excellent customer relationship and service and trust that it will be the deciding factor if you aren't willing to compromise on the "made in US" aspect.

Yes, I know the supply chain logistics of finding a reliable manufacturer for the pre-made stuff in itself is a challenge, especially with the language barier and not being able to have hands on control over it.

You just described EXACTLY how you combat it: you build rapport with the community you are serving.

[Jyn]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

You just described EXACTLY how you combat it: you build rapport with the community you are serving.

You still underestimate how cheap people are. It doesn't matter how great your customer service is, how ethical your manufacturing process is, etc.

The bottom line is, if it's cheaper elsewhere, cheap people will buy it, regardless of ANY other factors. There is no "combating" it.

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by wparsons

You're also kidding yourself if you don't think the OFT UEL tune didn't take A LOT of time to be a dead match for the OFH. Not saying Shiv shouldn't do that, but be realistic with things.

At the end of the day, ask guys actually racing (especially autox) which header they would take and why.

I agree that Shiv probable spent a fair amount of time to get the tune right for his header.

But his tune is now available for anyone and you can purchase the tune with the header for less than the Nameless header alone.

The biggest knock on the Nameless header is without a lot of special custom tuning time you will not get the most out of the header. Most regular joes wanting to buy a header and a tune dont have the money or access to spend days tweaking a customized tune for a header as it could easily run well over $1000.

IMO the nameless header is a great header for someone going FI. Its long tube large diameter runner design make great flow.
So for FI and racing customers Nameless is great.
For joe wanting a headerback its very expensive, hard to tune, and way overkill.

[sachu]

Originally Posted by Jyn

You still underestimate how cheap people are. It doesn't matter how great your customer service is, how ethical your manufacturing process is, etc.

The bottom line is, if it's cheaper elsewhere, cheap people will buy it, regardless of ANY other factors. There is no "combating" it.

you are talking about things outside your control.

Free will.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I feel like the Nameless 4-2-1 header has become somewhat misunderstood on this forum. It may not put out more peak power than other headers, but it does have the fattest midrange.

Here is a comparison I put together a while back of the Nameless vs. JDL vs. OFH headers:



Take this with a huge grain of salt since they were tested on different dynos, but even still, Nameless' midrange advantage from 3600-6000 RPM is clear even though peak power is about the same between the three. If you want the header with the thickest midrange, Nameless is probably your best choice.

Love seeing someone else that gets it! Peak hp is for bragging to clueless friends, area under the curve is what makes you fast. The huge difference in the midrange will make the car pull harder out of every single corner on a track (or auto x course). Even if it's only a tenth per corner, that's a full second on a 10 turn course.

The nameless could even be down a few hp at peak, but still be faster because of the amount of time spent in the range where it makes a ton more power.

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

Originally Posted by sachu

i hear you and yeah, is it against what's considered decency, for sure.

Can it be stopped? No. There is nothing you or anyone else's products that gets copied can do about it. Mainly cause there is very little that can be proved in a court of law, if there were laws that covered this sort of plagiarism, assuming it can be proved.

One alternative would be to dilute your own product by sourcing materials from outside the US or getting parts pre-fabbed elsewhere enmasse and then assembling/welding here. WOuld cut your costs down and you'd be able to price closer to drive copies out of the market.

Would that be against one of your current USP? Yeah.

I've buddies in audio industry and have built and sold audio amplifies myself and know its impossible to compete with overseas products, knockoffs, etc.

What one can build on is a strong product quality, excellent customer relationship and service and trust that it will be the deciding factor if you aren't willing to compromise on the "made in US" aspect.

Yes, I know the supply chain logistics of finding a reliable manufacturer for the pre-made stuff in itself is a challenge, especially with the language barier and not being able to have hands on control over it.

I agree with everything you've stated. I'm also very appreciative of what this market has done for my business, we were a 2 man operation in a small shop when i first purchased my fr-s and now there's 6 of us full-time in a much nicer newer facility. We've took some of steps you've mentioned above to be able to increase production, and hopefully soon might be able to drop the price slightly with increased quantities all while still supporting hardworking businesses in the US. With all that said we're probably at then end of product development for the 86 chassis and while we will continue to support the platform our focus recently has become higher end markets.

[86tylerfrs]

Originally Posted by Trefoil

No offense and I don't want to pick at your post too much, but PTuning did make their header "out of tubes, a nice merge collector and no cat." It was largely made for the turbocharger system that they offer, although it just happens to work beautifully for NA application too. The welds are equivalent to JDL and Nameless. I can say that with having both a friend that owns a JDL header and us both owning Nameless axlebacks and front/overpipes. It delivers more wTq and wHp than JDL's products throughout the entire range... even with the "dip" that people harp on.

I agree with nearly all of your other points. The MR2 community died a really horrific death due to knock offs drying up interest in developing the light, turbocharged system with incredible handling capabilities.

Wasn't your dyno graph the one with the giant pot hole of a torque dip, and the numbers were drastically inflated just to show good peak horsepower?

Edit: Yup, found the post: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=386

[Canehda]

Someone already mentioned this but nameless and JDL will always maintain a customer base because they have rapport and perceived (rightfully) quality which PLM will never have, I can see why nameless are mad from an ethical perspective but as I said before this header will not steal customers...

I think we can really end this thread with this summary which is fair to both sides:

Is it bad for original company's business = No because the price difference entails two separate markets
Is it a shit move to copy another companies design = of course it is
Can we do anything about it = No
What do we get from this thread = If you are planning to buy the original nameless header and can afford to do so, why the hell are you not? And if you do plan on buying a header for 550$ then you should seriously consider the pros and cons of doing so.
To guilt people into not buying a product is a slippery slope that isn't a forum's place. The job of the forum is to inform the facts so that people can make a decision on their own. Why don't we allow @Cross to review the product, see how it goes and let people make their own decisions based on the results

[shu5892001]

Originally Posted by Canehda

Someone already mentioned this but nameless and JDL will always maintain a customer base because they have rapport and perceived (rightfully) quality which PLM will never have, I can see why nameless are mad from an ethical perspective but as I said before this header will not steal customers...

I think we can really end this thread with this summary which is fair to both sides:

Is it bad for original company's business = No because the price difference entails two separate markets
Is it a shit move to copy another companies design = of course it is
Can we do anything about it = No
What do we get from this thread = If you are planning to buy the original nameless header and can afford to do so, why the hell are you not? And if you do plan on buying a header for 550$ then you should seriously consider the pros and cons of doing so.
To guilt people into not buying a product is a slippery slope that isn't a forum's place. The job of the forum is to inform the facts so that people can make a decision on their own. Why don't we allow @Cross to review the product, see how it goes and let people make their own decisions based on the results

+1 well said. Instead of bashing about replica and ethics, why don't we just let OP review the product.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by shu5892001

+1 well said. Instead of bashing about replica and ethics, why don't we just let OP review the product.

No.