PLM Long Tube Header

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's funny because Randy's work was a rare example of the Chinese knock offs being superior in material quality as well as workmanship. But even that doesn't make it right.

Supporting these assholes diminishes innovative products in the community by removing incentive to bust your balls and take risks.

Despite mild steel and ugly welds Randy invested in an idea that wasn't being done. It cost him (well his dad) money. It required following through and testing and idea.

Nameless was one company that took an approach of not simply 'it fits and it makes gains', but experimented with tuning the power band through runner lengths, rather than bloating their dyno sheets with 'E85 + header' numbers.

These Private Label shitheads were more than capable of jigging up the stock manifold, making it out of tubes, a nice merge collector and no cat. It would've probably made power. And been like every other $500 header where they would compete against other bottom feeders. So why the fuck did they copy Nameless? Because of the knowledge and testing they cane up with. That's the bullshit part. Making a header that outperforms stock is no big deal, but they felt the need to rip off one that had a specific power band and fitment that they couldn't do on their own.

The problem that arises is that why the fuck would Nameless work on anything new if shitheads 'respect' them but buy from a straight up competing knock off? There is room for improvement in all current header designs. Termination boxes, long primary short secondary tri-y, acoustic branches, tapered cross sections, headers that are more specifically application tuned, synching exhaust acoustics to intake manifold runner designs...

But these require experiments and testing and prototypes and time... All of which takes time. These aren't your daddy's turbo exhausts.

Without being able to gain from that, no one will do it. We'll end up with a homogeneous selection of identical function designs differentiated only by price, weld quality and material. With buyers focusing on price, they drive the market to commodity priced shit or retardedly expensive one-offs.



TLR,

Fuck knock offs.


(This is a general rant, Poodles. Not really all directed at you.)

Yeah, the whole thing with Randy was a bit weird as TRD was the original people that made a DDP for racing, he just mass produced it. I ended up buying one of the very first knock offs because he couldn't ship one fast enough (shop had broken my downpipe and I needed one NOW as it was a daily). Better material, but I bet Randy's would have fit better

Keep in mind I'm likely going to be paying out the nose for an HKS boxer spec header to be imported because they seem to have no intention of ever releasing it here in the US (they said it was going to be released in Feb of last year ffs).


I was mostly playing devil's advocate there, but Nameless should be showing people WHY their product is so much more expensive. Especially because they don't have a massive pedigree name (like HKS, GReddy, etc) to lean on.

Originally Posted by Trefoil

I agree with nearly all of your other points. The MR2 community died a really horrific death due to knock offs drying up interest in developing the light, turbocharged system with incredible handling capabilities.

Car communities are dying because the car is drying up in supply so the people that produce the parts are no longer able to sell parts to them. Same thing is happening to the Supra community, the cars are getting rare and anything worth having is either custom or was made decades ago when there was demand for them.

Originally Posted by bur****jp

Liking something which has such a dramatic impact on performance not because of the way it performs, but because of the way it SOUNDS just does not connect in my brain.

The same way people justify catbacks on this car. Though I'm not sure if you're for or against UEL headers as they've been shown to really help get rid of the dreaded torque dip...






Oh, and I wouldn't mind mild steel exhaust components so long as they come coated. Had some Jackson Racing headers on Miatas that were this way and they worked great. No real reason to run stainless if it's going to be coated anyway...

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Of course it was an oversimplification but not uncorrect (in our cars case) as you suggest.
The stock header design of our car is actually a very decent design and there have been a few people who gutted the cat and picked up some very good gains.

Of course there is always going to be differences in gains based on design but you are making it out to be a huge difference.

Here are two great examples. OFH vs Nameless. 4-1 vs 4-2-1 and completely different designs. Look at the dynos, do you see drastic differences?

OFH which can be had for <=$650 (even as little as 550 when bundled with a tune).


Nameless which is $1200

I'm not going to overlay the two dynos because it's a waste of time. The OFT is done on e85, the nameless is on pump gas. The OFT dyno also doesn't include stock runs, so you have no idea what that car put down on that dyno before the header, tune and e85. Also note the nameless was run on the full stock exhaust, I can't remember for sure but I'm pretty sure the OFH runs were on a full aftermarket exhaust.

Take a look at the two "curves" though. The nameless makes more torque for longer, which is what actually makes the car faster. If you think those have a similar shape, you need to look closer. Get a dyno of the nameless on e85 and it'll be blowing the OFH out of the water across the board.

You can't compare final dynos only, you need to compare before/after to see what kind of changes you're getting.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Say what you want but most people buying a 25k car aren't effing rich and can't afford $3000 exhausts, $2000 rims, or $3000 plastic body pieces.


I have the following replica products and it's because of these offerings that I was even able to mod my car to begin with. I cannot afford most of the name brand products, as a broke grad student and retail store manager, nor would I buy them if I could. Again this is an FR-S not a damn GT-R.

I can't stand this defense... you can't go to a grocery store and steal expensive steak because you're not rich, so how is that justification for buying shameless knockoffs?

If you can't afford something, then you don't buy it. It doesn't matter how expensive the car is, you're still taking money from the people actually supporting the community.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I can't stand this defense... you can't go to a grocery store and steal expensive steak because you're not rich, so how is that justification for buying shameless knockoffs?

If you can't afford something, then you don't buy it. It doesn't matter how expensive the car is, you're still taking money from the people actually supporting the community.

Because buying replica products is not stealing... At least not in the US. Now if I went to Nameless and jacked a header out of their shop, then yes that would be stealing. Your argument is just as ridiculous....it would be going to the grocery store and buying a box of generic fruit loops instead of the name brand. They taste the same, look the same, but have different branding and one might be of slightly less quality and is about half the price. Are these people thieves too ?

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Because buying replica products is not stealing... At least not in the US. Now if I went to Nameless and jacked a header out of their shop, then yes that would be stealing. Your argument is just as ridiculous....it would be going to the grocery store and buying a box of generic fruit loops instead of the name brand. They taste the same, look the same, but have different branding and one might be of slightly less quality and is about half the price. Are these people thieves too ?

Fruit loop stealing asshole.
Think of how Toucan Sam feels.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by raven1231

Because buying replica products is not stealing... At least not in the US. Now if I went to Nameless and jacked a header out of their shop, then yes that would be stealing. Your argument is just as ridiculous....it would be going to the grocery store and buying a box of generic fruit loops instead of the name brand. They taste the same, look the same, but have different branding and one might be of slightly less quality and is about half the price. Are these people thieves too ?

No, its not. PLM stole the design. You're just supporting this thievery by buying. Much closer to buying stolen goods.

It's not like buying generic at the grocery store. Commodity items are not the same as things like this header, which was R&D'd for performance, not price. If you wanted cheaper, there are lesser performing options at much lower prices already, and they really do deliver most of they gains. Even in the commodity market there are clear differences. I assume there may be here with longevity based on other cars and this company...

C

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by cjd

No, its not. PLM stole the design. You're just supporting this thievery by buying. Much closer to buying stolen goods.

It's not like buying generic at the grocery store. Commodity items are not the same as things like this header, which was R&D'd for performance, not price. If you wanted cheaper, there are lesser performing options at much lower prices already, and they really do deliver most of they gains. Even in the commodity market there are clear differences. I assume there may be here with longevity based on other cars and this company...

C

I would argue that fruity o's stole the design from fruit loops and that frosty flakes is the same "design" as frosted flakes.... lol the point is what they're doing is not stealing....unethical? sure, depending on how you look at it. Now taking a design and copying it and branding it as the original is actually a crime, but that's not what's happening here.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by raven1231

I would argue that fruity o's stole the design from fruit loops and that frosty flakes is the same "design" as frosted flakes.... lol the point is what they're doing is not stealing....unethical? sure, depending on how you look at it. Now taking a design and copying it and branding it as the original is actually a crime, but that's not what's happening here.

Generics like that are usually legally licensed deals. Factory that gets contract to make them usually has some IP sharing terms in them.

There are legal provisions for action against unlicensed knockoffs. Callaway golf has successfully sued importers of non-branded knockoff products (different than direct counterfeits), and gotten import bans in place.

However that takes a shit-ton of time and money. The guys at PTuning, Nameless and JDL aren't huge mega corporations with robot factories and legal departments. They're guys that bust balls and probably don't make any more money than their average customer, but love cars. They're no more capable of throwing around huge lawsuits than anyone on this forum. Justice system favors the rich and those who prey on people that can't afford to defend themselves.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by raven1231

I would argue that fruity o's stole the design from fruit loops and that frosty flakes is the same "design" as frosted flakes.... lol the point is what they're doing is not stealing....unethical? sure, depending on how you look at it. Now taking a design and copying it and branding it as the original is actually a crime, but that's not what's happening here.

They still are not a parallel example to this header.

They're definitely targeting fruity o's at the same market, and that's the inspiration. They don't taste the same or appear the same, and I'd be surprised if the nutritional value were the same. In other words, the branding is what makes you know what they're after. And, commodities is still very different. So is the volume.

I'm not sure if there are laws regarding time in market before food generics are permitted, as is the case with pharma.

I do know what this kind of thing does to undermine incentive to innovate in a market segment this small.

C

[Jyn]

Originally Posted by raven1231

I would argue that fruity o's stole the design from fruit loops and that frosty flakes is the same "design" as frosted flakes.... lol the point is what they're doing is not stealing....unethical? sure, depending on how you look at it. Now taking a design and copying it and branding it as the original is actually a crime, but that's not what's happening here.

You don't understand the difference between copying and stealing a design.

Generic brand foods copy the end-product of namebrand foods. This would be like looking at a picture and free-hand drawing a copy of it. This is not what we are discussing.

Knock off brands copy the execution of a namebrand product. This would be like buying the namebrand picture, tracing it on your own picture, then selling that picture you traced at a lower price because it took you almost no overhead cost to manufacture it. This is where the issue lies.

[Jyn]

*sigh*

Anyone that comments on this should be required to have a background or familiarity in engineering and/or manufacturing. I'm noticing most people that fall to one side of the spectrum are those that have no idea what it's like on the other side.

[Cross]

It's a pointless debate regardless, were having it because we want to but none of this will change the world, as stated before it takes money to win things like this and everyone in this thread combined couldn't make a dent in the businesses that support this.

[raven1231]

My whole problem with this ridiculous argument is that making knock offs of products is not illegal therefore it's not theft....Counterfeiting is on the other hand. You're right I'm not an engineer although I do have a master's in Criminal Justice and Criminology and am working on my Juris Doctor, sorry if my input isn't accepted by you higher beings...

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by raven1231

I would argue that fruity o's stole the design from fruit loops and that frosty flakes is the same "design" as frosted flakes.... lol the point is what they're doing is not stealing....unethical? sure, depending on how you look at it. Now taking a design and copying it and branding it as the original is actually a crime, but that's not what's happening here.

You must not understand what a commodities market is. Pencils are a good example of a commodity market. The greater majority of pencils in the world are hexegonal with a 6mm inscribed circle. They're yellow, and they have an eraser attached at one end. they're labeled #2. If I make pencils of that description, am I stealing from anybody? no. It's a commodity. Pencils are expected to be like that.
Cereals are similar, albeit not exactly so. Some cereals are shaped like little donuts, including Apple Jacks and Cheerios, which are from different manufacturers. If I make cereal shaped like little donuts I'm not stealing anyone's current idea. I'm sure 60 years ago I would have been accused of copying Cheerios (I can't find any mention of O shaped cereal before this, but I didn't exactly look hard) but time has passed an people expect their breakfast cereal to be delivered to their face in miniature form.

Claiming to be what you copied is called counterfeit. There's some overlap here, but just because it is not expressly counterfeit does not mean it's not stealing. You are still handing money to people to provide you a product which is immorally produced.

How about this. Lets say I'm a member of the forum. A US citizen. I say "I want a Nameless, but I can't afford it, so I'm going to borrow my friend's Nameless, make a jig, and copy it. I'm going to order enough material to make a few. I think it'll be about $600. Who wants one?"
Is what I'm doing moral? I'd probably get banned from the forum. I HOPE I'd get banned for it. What about the people handing me money. Would anyone even hand me money? I hope not. If you say what I would be doing would be wrong, then you are being hypocritical to turn around and hand money to any of these knock-offs. Spending money with a company is akin to telling them "I support your business practices. I vote for you with my money." YOU are doing something immoral by knowingly supporting them doing something immoral.

The difference here is that it is expected that an east asian manufactured copy will eventually arise of any quality product on the market. Maybe it's a sign of success? Like a mockbuster. It does not make it moral, though.

The irony here is that they copied the Nameless, who's whole story is about fighting and mocking the very thing we're talking about.