S2000 vs 86 - 3 Years Development Later

[rice_classic]

I think the FT needs a cage, without a doubt, and the front needs extra bracing due to those strut towers.

I'm sure you have loads of data with the S2, so when you get data from the FT where are the deltas? Where is it lacking? Entry, apex, exit, straight line... All of the above?

[D K]

At this point Im gonna venture to say corner entry and mid corner.

Could be the exit too, but because the entry is so slow, it seems ok

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I think the FT needs a cage, without a doubt, and the front needs extra bracing due to those strut towers.

I'm sure you have loads of data with the S2, so when you get data from the FT where are the deltas? Where is it lacking? Entry, apex, exit, straight line... All of the above?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by D K

Im at sea at moment and dont have my old data logs handy.

If I was to list pros and cons for each car, they would be:

FRS:

Pros
Looks - its an awesome looking car.
Steering feel - very good feedback
Stock brakes - amazing how far we got with just stock brakes
Aftermarket support
Aero
Rear end break away - progressive

Cons
Drivetrain - engine and trans are made out of glass and Im just waiting to see what happens with the diff.
Balance - stupidly front heavy.
Front geometry - I suspect something is amiss there, need to tune more with telemetry (AIM Evo4 installed)
Lack of real world racing data - seems there are only a handul of people who are seriously interested in developing this car.
Too many people are interested in just shark fin antennaes.
A bitch to work on - time consuming


AP1/2
Pros
Chassis very stiff from factory
Front end bite - initial turn in is very precise
Rear end grip - very good (to a point - see below)
Engine - very well flowing head and generally bulletproof (in 32 races we lost only one engine and that was our fault for letting someone build it who shouldnt have)
Simple to work on

Cons
Looks - not crazy about them
Aero - not so good
Steering feel - numb and not much feedback
Transmission shifting - after a number of hard laps, feeling got even more vague and it was easy to mis shift.
Rear end break away - combined with the lack of steering feel, this was not ideal
Diff - only real weak point in the drivetrain - eventually we would show up with 2-3 built diffs and just swap them after a number of sessions.
Aftermarket support - much better now, but at the time we were one of the first to actually race an AP.
Expensive - parts are not cheap
Hubs - didnt like big wide slicks
Suspension mounting points - they were pretty weak and needed reinforcing
Stock brakes - rotors were only good for 3-4 sessions before cracking



This is the best that I can come up with off the cuff from memory.

I would be happy to provide more technical and precise feedback at a later date.


These are my opinions and they may not reflect yours.

Im cool with that.

D

The FRS diff will never fail. The core is shared with a MKIV Supra.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I think the FT needs a cage, without a doubt, and the front needs extra bracing due to those strut towers.

I'm sure you have loads of data with the S2, so when you get data from the FT where are the deltas? Where is it lacking? Entry, apex, exit, straight line... All of the above?

Exit and straight line.

Even boosted, it suffers a lot.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by D K

Good question!


Ironically enough - zero!

I must be the only one and I am counting my blessings.

Ive received a lot of help from the csg guys, Jackson Racing and Church Automotive Tuning.
I really think without the right ingredients, I would have been on my 9th engine right now.


As far as a vette or a porch is concerned, I didnt want to do that.
I wanted the nimbleness of a small, lightweight coupe.



Maybe after my next track day, I will unlock some big secret and fall in love with this car??
Who knows

You have no idea how much I want to slap you.

[rice_classic]

DK says corner entry and mid corner
CSG Mike says exit and straight.

So I was right... all of the above. LOL

It's very difficult to fix something that's bad everywhere. Which end works the best? Front or Rear?

Is the front roll stiffness addressing the tire's contact patch? Too much/too little camber? Not enough caster to maximize cornering dynamic camber? When it comes to putting the power down (exit) is it struggling with oversteer causing the driver to "wait" or is putting power down causing the front give up like it's lifting up the inside front and outside front is giving up?

Any rear suspension bind been identified? I know some others have pointed out potential rear suspension bind. Are spherical bearings being used to make sure the suspensions moves without impedance and there's no funny business going on under load like dynamic toe changes from bushing deflection?

edit: You're not trying to use any setup parameters on the FT that worked on the S2 are you? I doubt very little of the S2 setup would be ideal on the FT.

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by D K

Pros
Rear end break away - progressive
Cons
Balance - stupidly front heavy.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here; they moved the drivetrain to achieve a desired rate of rotation.

[D K]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

You seem to be contradicting yourself here; they moved the drivetrain to achieve a desired rate of rotation.

How is that contradicting?

[rice_classic]

D_K,

You should fly me down, I'd be happy to help test it on track. I won't even charge.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Dude, these things are not FWD. MacPhail struts work just fine on the front of a RWD car.

The lack of dynamic camber means very little when you're working with RWD because you tend to run a higher roll stiffness setup in the front and softer in the rear so between a static camber, stiff front roll and a large caster angle the contact patch of the front tires is appropriately utilized.

Tell that to the double wishbone equipped Silvias competing at the top (& podiuming) in World Time Attack. :P

[Valentino]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

DK says corner entry and mid corner
CSG Mike says exit and straight.

So I was right... all of the above. LOL

It's very difficult to fix something that's bad everywhere. Which end works the best? Front or Rear?

I'm sorry but you all are talking about the 86? That its a horrible handling car? Or you all are talking about the S2000?

[swarb]

Originally Posted by Valentino

I'm sorry but you all are talking about the 86? That its a horrible handling car? Or you all are talking about the S2000?

Read the question before the answer.

[Valentino]

Originally Posted by swarb

Read the question before the answer.

So what they want to say is that the S2000 is better in corner entry, mid corner, exit and straight Then the 86?

Or regardless of the s2000 the 86 is a bad handling car?

[burdickjp]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Tell that to the double wishbone equipped Silvias competing at the top (& podiuming) in World Time Attack. :P

All those Porsches must be doing it wrong.