Ace 4-2-1 Header

[churchx]

AceHeader-MT: i meant - low gains shown not due dyno (that's very common problem with trying to compare results from different dynos and going just for numbers, not +%), but low gains shown relative on baseline oem stock. Of course, some dynos may show much higher relative to others, but if baseline is done on same dyno and at similar weather (air temp/pressure wise), then relative % gains should be same no matter what dyno is used for both baseline & with header+tune.
And i don't get - why. Maybe baseline is too high for some reason (mixed up with chart from different configuration? Or not stock, but with tune?), maybe something wrong with aftermarked parts installed runs (wrong or no tune? bad install with leaking gaskets?). I fail to see why there is just 172.4 whp stock 176.4 4-2-1(+FP) (+2.3%), 200.3 Nm stock 202.8 4-2-1(+FP) (+1.2%), when for example with custom tunes Nameless or PTuning headers can get from 175 whp baseline to 200 header+tune (+14%).
It's not +5whp vs +25whp, that might be due different dynos, that seems wrong to me. It's +2.3 vs +14% that seems wrong.
And i have no clue for reasons, as i see nothing wrong with how header is designed, it even seems more promising design wise to me then other headers with sharper bends, shorter runner lengths, with collectors of runners at wider angle. Magic
IIRC, even just and only off-the-shelf tune on full-oem-stock can give at least +10whp/+5% on petrol, twice what your header+tune shown. I just don't get what might be wrong. Tune + catted header should give +15whp. Your uncutted one SHOULD be much better :/
LOL, usually some unbelieving customers distrust vendor supplied results being too high .. now it's other way around, with me trying to distrust too low ones

[Teseo]

The combo #4 looks promising, nice work and thanks for the effort.
Where is the sounds clips lol

[Calum]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Looks like the "USA EL long runner" header makes the most power from 4500-7400 RPM. Would probably be my choice for a track-only car. But gives up a lot of torque under 4500 RPM.

For a daily driver or DD/track mix, the "4-2-1 full 02" seems to be a good compromise.

The 4-2-1 OEFP looks great to me. Less money and it gains significantly down low while only giving up about 5 hp in the mid upper range.

[AceHeader-MT]

Originally Posted by bur****jp

You mean integrals.

haha, good catch

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Looks like the "USA EL long runner" header makes the most power from 4500-7400 RPM. Would probably be my choice for a track-only car. But gives up a lot of torque under 4500 RPM.

For a daily driver or DD/track mix, the "4-2-1 full 02" seems to be a good compromise.

Yes, for our track car Delicious has given us a specific tune for our set-up which produces smoother torque curves and more power.

For the DD and HPDE drivers this may not happen.

Originally Posted by churchx

AceHeader-MT: i meant - low gains shown not due dyno (that's very common problem with trying to compare results from different dynos and going just for numbers, not +%), but low gains shown relative on baseline oem stock. Of course, some dynos may show much higher relative to others, but if baseline is done on same dyno and at similar weather (air temp/pressure wise), then relative % gains should be same no matter what dyno is used for both baseline & with header+tune.
And i don't get - why. Maybe baseline is too high for some reason (mixed up with chart from different configuration? Or not stock, but with tune?), maybe something wrong with aftermarked parts installed runs (wrong or no tune? bad install with leaking gaskets?). I fail to see why there is just 172.4 whp stock 176.4 4-2-1(+FP) (+2.3%), 200.3 Nm stock 202.8 4-2-1(+FP) (+1.2%), when for example with custom tunes Nameless or PTuning headers can get from 175 whp baseline to 200 header+tune (+14%).
It's not +5whp vs +25whp, that might be due different dynos, that seems wrong to me. It's +2.3 vs +14% that seems wrong.
And i have no clue for reasons, as i see nothing wrong with how header is designed, it even seems more promising design wise to me then other headers with sharper bends, shorter runner lengths, with collectors of runners at wider angle. Magic
IIRC, even just and only off-the-shelf tune on full-oem-stock can give at least +10whp/+5% on petrol, twice what your header+tune shown. I just don't get what might be wrong. Tune + catted header should give +15whp. Your uncutted one SHOULD be much better :/
LOL, usually some unbelieving customers distrust vendor supplied results being too high .. now it's other way around, with me trying to distrust too low ones

I agree, and we were slightly dis-heartened by the figures, I can tell you most cars with these upgrades (header+tune from anywhere) should produce close to 200hp and higher torque figures...

Originally Posted by Teseo

The combo #4 looks promising, nice work and thanks for the effort.
Where is the sounds clips lol

Thanks, we took some video but with the rolling road sound and massive blower to keep the car cool it was tough to get exhaust sound.

You can check out on-board sounds from the GT car here. Only difference is we have a custom muffler, different from the OE one used for dyno testing: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f-fCfZExI"]2015 TSF rd.1 - YouTube[/ame]

We can work on getting good sounds bites next

Originally Posted by Calum

The 4-2-1 OEFP looks great to me. Less money and it gains significantly down low while only giving up about 5 hp in the mid upper range.

[churchx]

AceHeader-MT: btw, couldn't it be, that dynos were performed right after reflashing, and maybe it's when ECU still relearns fuel trims or something along the lines, thus not showing full results, unlike stock, which, as done prior any reflash/ecu reset/exhaust parts upgrade, ran at full, not throttled back prior dyno runs power? In some tunes for dynoing purposes it might be taken care of, but in some - maybe not, and just maybe that was the reason for lower results? Well, however it be, i don't believe that your header isn't capable of much more, and imho first results by other users of these headers with independently performed tuning should show much better results.

[AceHeader-MT]

Originally Posted by churchx

AceHeader-MT: btw, couldn't it be, that dynos were performed right after reflashing, and maybe it's when ECU still relearns fuel trims or something along the lines, thus not showing full results, unlike stock, which, as done prior any reflash/ecu reset/exhaust parts upgrade, ran at full, not throttled back prior dyno runs power? In some tunes for dynoing purposes it might be taken care of, but in some - maybe not, and just maybe that was the reason for lower results? Well, however it be, i don't believe that your header isn't capable of much more, and imho first results by other users of these headers with independently performed tuning should show much better results.

Could be, the car originally had a specialized stage 2 NA, for this it had the stage 2 NA Flex Fuel (without E85) installed recently... shit.... anyway, at least all systems were tested in the same conditions.

There are a few arriving in the US soon and maybe dyno numbers will be released by them? No promises though

[AceHeader-MT]

Here's some photos of the day

[CSG Mike]

This looks promising. Perhaps the flow is so good that an off the shelf tune wasn't able to keep up?

was the ECU reset between setups and how many pulls were performed for each combination? I understand this is a lot of combos and dyno time is not cheap!

[AceHeader-MT]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This looks promising. Perhaps the flow is so good that an off the shelf tune wasn't able to keep up?

Hope that's the case

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

was the ECU reset between setups and how many pulls were performed for each combination? I understand this is a lot of combos and dyno time is not cheap!

ECU was reset over the weekend. Car drove about 150miles to the dyno on the new tune. Very possible this is the reason as the witchcraft of ECU communication was still being sorted.

We did 2 pulls of each set-up and 3 pulls with the prototype cross system = 15 pulls
(USA x2, 4-2-1 OEFP x2, 4-2-1 ACEFP x2, 4-1 OEFP x2, Cross OEFP x2, Cross ACEFP x3, Full OEM x2)

Combined with the time to swap of each system...it was a long hot day.

[AceHeader-MT]

Here's some dyno numbers from Fricke in Sweden. He put these together for us before his opening event at Sweden Time Attack this weekend.

He's running 4-2-1 and a custom 2.5 exhaust with a 200cel catalytic converter and a stuffed muffler for 95dB

Give 'em hell buddy!

[churchx]

AceHeader-MT: you don't happen to have his baseline header-less stock numbers/dyno results, do you?

[AceHeader-MT]

Originally Posted by churchx

AceHeader-MT: you don't happen to have his baseline header-less stock numbers/dyno results, do you?

Sorry, we don't. He took these after the 4-2-1 was installed and was nice enough to pass along the data.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Looks like the "USA EL long runner" header makes the most power from 4500-7400 RPM. Would probably be my choice for a track-only car. But gives up a lot of torque under 4500 RPM.

For a daily driver or DD/track mix, the "4-2-1 full 02" seems to be a good compromise.

Is USA EL, a Nameless setup?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Is USA EL, a Nameless setup?

That's my guess, but haven't seen confirmation on that.

BTW if you look at CSG's Ace header thread, CSG lists results as tested against a "leading UEL header", but no name given. I think that might be Tomei. They also post a dyno (different car, same dyno) showing results from PTuning's 4-1 header.