FRS FA20 turbo vs FRS lsx/2jz

[hmong337]

It's the height of the motor being taller is what I'm curious to see on how it affects handling.

[Cross]

Here is a post from another about a completed cars weight with full interior.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1835019

Trying to do this from my phone is annoying.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Poodles

I've personally seen over 1500HP on a 2JZ... Leaving out the drivetrain loss, that's 250HP/cylinder and as the car was a 3.4 stroker, ~441HP/liter

And I've personally seen a 2500hp LS propel a Camaro to 263mph in the standing mile. That's 312hp/cylinder...

You implied the 2JZ was in essence "crap" when it's been beating down supercars for years..

If you inferred that, too bad. I certainly never said or meant to imply anything like that!

A lot of useless nonsense

??? What was nonsense: suggesting that the 2JZ's 7 2-bolt main bearings (just like in my old 240Z!) made it superior to the LS, due to having 2 more main bearings and 4 fewer bolts per main.

That was a perfectly meaningless point to make.

V8's, just like V6's are done for packaging reasons and from a design standpoint are inherently weaker than the 3 perfectly balanced motors: I6, V12, and Boxer. This isn't a debate about what I like, it's clear and simple engine design fact.

There are compromises to all engine designs. I6 has a long crankshaft that can give rise to torsional instabilities which can limit rpm, as Mikem pointed out.

I seriously doubt we'd see a lot of I8s in place of V8s even if there were no packaging concerns.

I6 is a good, workable configuration for a reliable performance engine, and so is V8.

The 2JZ is narrow allowing it to be mounted farther back and still clear the steering linkage, unlike the FA20, LS, etc...

You might get the back of the engine closer to the firewall, but I would bet that the c.g. of the 2JZ will still be in front of either the FA's or the LS's. Heavier engine, further forward => more forward c.g.

So we agree

Sometimes!

I'm still waiting for someone to toss a Porsche motor in one of these cars to piss off the Porsche purists...

I don't think that would bother them anything like as much as LS swaps into 911s!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Cross

First the rotary has iron housings. A 13btt is 410lbs, and LS3 is 440 I believe.
Not to mention the lack of parts, reliability, housings as Mazda stopped making them and so much more but hey just keep talking about things you have no idea on.

??? I know full well what an LS/T56 swap adds to an FD, ~50 lb. like vs. like. So what does an LS/T56 add to an FR-S/BRZ? I would *guess* it would add about the same, but it could be more or less as far as I know. I'm all ears...
By mentioning the 13B's iron housing you seem to be suggesting that the rotary is heavier than the FA. If that's the case, the LS swap will add more weight than what it adds to the FD.

One out of two companies so far doing the swap used the XL, where as the other does not... But hey let's quote only what we like so it supports our argument.

I'm all ears, man. Point me to info, I'll sop it up. That build was the only one I had anything like detailed info on.

The weight of swapped FRS and BRZ's has been posted for some time your just to lazy to look so you make up posts. Even corner weights are posted.
Since you cannot do it yourself let me go find it for you.

Fook, man, I have searched the topic and I've asked for info, this is the first time this has been pointed out to me so THANKS.

Originally Posted by Cross

Here is a post from another about a completed cars weight with full interior.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1835019

Whaddya know, 1642 lb front, 1277 lb rear = 56/44, exactly what I predicted...
I had thought even that might be optimistic, I'm glad to see that it has been achieved.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by ZDan

??? I know full well what an LS/T56 swap adds to an FD, ~50 lb. like vs. like. So what does an LS/T56 add to an FR-S/BRZ? I would *guess* it would add about the same, but it could be more or less as far as I know. I'm all ears...

By mentioning the 13B's iron housing you seem to be suggesting that the rotary is heavier than the FA. If that's the case, the LS swap will add more weight than what it adds to the FD.

I'm all ears, man. Point me to info, I'll sop it up. That build was the only one I had anything like detailed info on.

Fook, man, I have searched the topic and I've asked for info, this is the first time this has been pointed out to me so THANKS.

Whaddya know, 1642 lb front, 1277 lb rear = 56/44, exactly what I predicted...
I had thought even that might be optimistic, I'm glad to see that it has been achieved.

It add's 50 pounds you say, a complete swap adds 50 pounds so do you really think the 13BTT is really that light of a motor? You are letting it's size fool you because you don't seem to understand how it's built. These are not super light motor's in fact they are heavy.

Let me layout the weights:
13B Twin Turbo 410
LS3 6.2L V8 415lbs
LS7 7.0L V8 454lbs
2JZ Twin Turbo 580lbs
FA20 (Oddly enough finding this is proving to be a pain even those who have asked on the forums can't seem to get an answer)
FA20 and Turbo (Since kit's vary I will go with 78lbs for a complete turbo kit with intercooler up front)

As for weight changes on the RX7 FD Swaps here is actual weights from stock, ls and 2jz setups.
http://www.rx7club.com/other-engine-...eight-1063061/

[C130NAV]

Ill go out and weigh my engine minus transmission if you want. Just need to make sure my scale goes that high lol

[Cross]

Originally Posted by C130NAV

Ill go out and weigh my engine minus transmission if you want. Just need to make sure my scale goes that high lol

That would be great, try and make sure the intake, ac, basically the accessory's and intake with tb is on it if possible that's how the other are weighed.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Cross

It add's 50 pounds you say, a complete swap adds 50 pounds so do you really think the 13BTT is really that light of a motor? You are letting it's size fool you because you don't seem to understand how it's built. These are not super light motor's in fact they are heavy.

No, I know the stock 13b-tt is not a light motor. Stock, with stock twins, it's quite heavy for its size. Which is why when you replace it with a 6+ liter LS (like vs. like, keeping p/s and a/c, etc) you only add 50 lb.

My *point* was that even on an FD, where you aren't adding that much weight, and where the engine is mounted more aft relative to the FR-S, you still move the c.g. forward.

On the FR-S, where the delta in engine weights is greater, and where the engine is mounted further forward, you're not going to do any *better* than the swap into the FD as far as movement of c.g. is concerned. And on the FD, like vs. like, c.g. moves forward ~1.5% (like vs. like).

As for weight changes on the RX7 FD Swaps here is actual weights from stock, ls and 2jz setups.
http://www.rx7club.com/other-engine-...eight-1063061/

Yeah, I'm familiar with that thread. It is three different base cars with different mods and different "deletes" (A/C, p/s, ABS). Tough to get *true* like vs. like differences.

From my car and what I've been able to gather from other builds, LS swap into an FD, same level of equipment, adds *about* 50 lb. vs. stock and moves the weight forward *about* 1.5%. With other modifications and deletes/additions, you *can* make it lighter than stock with a more rearward c.g., but then you can make the rotary car a lot lighter and move its c.g. rearward as well...

[Cross]

Originally Posted by ZDan

No, I know the stock 13b-tt is not a light motor. Stock, with stock twins, it's quite heavy for its size. Which is why when you replace it with a 6+ liter LS (like vs. like, keeping p/s and a/c, etc) you only add 50 lb.

My *point* was that even on an FD, where you aren't adding that much weight, and where the engine is mounted more aft relative to the FR-S, you still move the c.g. forward.

On the FR-S, where the delta in engine weights is greater, and where the engine is mounted further forward, you're not going to do any *better* than the swap into the FD as far as movement of c.g. is concerned. And on the FD, like vs. like, c.g. moves forward ~1.5% (like vs. like).



Yeah, I'm familiar with that thread. It is three different base cars with different mods and different "deletes" (A/C, p/s, ABS). Tough to get *true* like vs. like differences.

From my car and what I've been able to gather from other builds, LS swap into an FD, same level of equipment, adds *about* 50 lb. vs. stock and moves the weight forward *about* 1.5%. With other modifications and deletes/additions, you *can* make it lighter than stock with a more rearward c.g., but then you can make the rotary car a lot lighter and move its c.g. rearward as well...

And it will be the same thing my FD was, one hell of a great car to look at in the garage... which it hardly ever left because there was always something wrong.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Cross

And it will be the same thing my FD was, one hell of a great car to look at in the garage... which it hardly ever left because there was always something wrong.

I've done 12 track days, Texas Mile, multiple 1000-mile plus trips (two between Texas and Rhode Island), 24,000 street miles in mine since I got it in October 2011.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I've done 12 track days, Texas Mile, multiple 1000-mile plus trips (two between Texas and Rhode Island), 24,000 street miles in mine since I got it in October 2011.

I did 2 motor replacements and got maybe 1000 miles of driving out of each of them and they were not modified. The only difference was I added a bigger radiator and the second time removed rats nest of vacuum lines making both turbos work identically. To be clear this was an FD with the Rotary still in it. The LS1 going in the FRS was originally for my RX7 which already had the hinsin kit installed by that point but the FRS took over.

[ZDan]

Oh, pardon me, that's my LS-swapped FD! I see now you were talking turbo rotary!

[C130NAV]

Originally Posted by Cross

That would be great, try and make sure the intake, ac, basically the accessory's and intake with tb is on it if possible that's how the other are weighed.

Thats how she sits now only thing missing is a reluctor wheel and a tranny. Soon as I get a weight ill post it.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Oh, pardon me, that's my LS-swapped FD! I see now you were talking turbo rotary!

I thought it was a little odd then I noticed you had a LS2 FD listed and I felt I should clarify.