Do I need a Strut Tower Bar?

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by muffinz

1. Are the stock braces sufficient?
2. How noticeable is the difference?
3. Should I get one?
4. If I get the strut tower bar, should I get the TRD door braces too?

1. Yes
2. Very. Having said that there is no objective improvement in performance, only in the way the front end feels.
3. Inane question. You don't need any of your mods. In fact you don't need this car.
4. Just get the TRD stickers and no one else will know the difference.
5. See Fatoni's and Ultramaroon's posts above.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by muffinz

Thanks again!

So I did the math and the bushings you mentioned would be ~$250 plus install. I can get a strut brace for ~$150 and install it myself for free

The bushings are a bit outside my budget right now.

Now for the difficult questions:

Would a strut top brace benefit my driving skill more or less than upgraded bushings? Would one complement the other? Would one put more stress on the car than the other? What are the appropriate steps - brace first then bushings, or bushings first then brace?

No offence but this response indicates to me you missed Andy's @Racecomp Engineering point.

Both strut brace and control-arm bushings work towards the same goal of more tightly controlling the motion of the suspension geometry under load.

But mushy control arm bushings contribute WAY more than frame twist does to any inaccuracy.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by boredom.is.me

@fatoni
hinged versus solid - If you're adding rigidity, why compromise?

what is the compromise? the bar isnt going to get longer or shorter. if your entire car cant do the job of keeping the strut from twisting, a tower bar isnt going to be the solution. i can see them maybe keeping the mounting points in the same place marginally better than nothing at all but its not going to stop the rotating.

[Captain Snooze]

.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by fatoni

what is the compromise? the bar isnt going to get longer or shorter.

No, but one side can deflect more than the other vertically. Which may be desirable or not depending on your goals. This is why STI integrates a joint in the middle to unlock the bar for vertical impact to improve ride softness and comfort. A solid bar using only welds locks the chassis together which forces the suspension to do its job rather than using a flexing chassis to compensate or interfere.

Easy to tell the difference between a weld and hinge design just driving on and off your driveway or jacking up the car.

By and large, hinged strut braces are made to improve design modularity and cut costs.

For those interested, you could have seen Ken Gushi's Greddy powered FRS TRD RS 1.0 at the OC auto show this last weekend.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2sbHjETE0U"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2sbHjETE0U[/ame]


You would have seen a race prepped car using an unlabeled Hotchkiss front tower brace. The best engineered front brace in production without question and chosen for a reason (triangulation and no hinges). So yeah, TRD actually installed a Hotchkiss strut bar on Ken Gushi's TRD FRS and removed the sticker.

The TRD door jambs also do make a noticeable improvement in rigidity. Just put a Go Pro camera outside your car door and film the jambs and gaps flexing on a track or even while just driving on the street spiritedly. Yeah it's pricey and looks like a ricey gimmick to steal money, but it does work as intended. Not as good as a full cage, but not as intrusive or expensive either. Far better money spent than on those crappy rebadged TRD rotors made by DBA I'd say or the $50 sound tube tuning pipes.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by abraxis

No, but one side can deflect more than the other vertically. Which may be desirable or not depending on your goals. This is why STI integrates a joint in the middle to unlock the bar for vertical impact to improve ride softness and comfort. A solid bar using only welds locks the chassis together which forces the suspension to do its job rather than using a flexing chassis to compensate or interfere.

Easy to tell the difference between a weld and hinge design just driving on and off your driveway or jacking up the car.

By and large, hinged strut braces are made to improve design modularity and cut costs.

For those interested, you could have seen Ken Gushi's Greddy powered FRS TRD RS 1.0 at the OC auto show this last weekend.

You would have seen a race prepped car using an unlabeled Hotchkiss front tower brace. The best engineered front brace in production without question and chosen for a reason (triangulation and no hinges). So yeah, TRD actually installed a Hotchkiss strut bar on Ken Gushi's TRD FRS and removed the sticker.

The TRD door jambs also do make a noticeable improvement in rigidity. Just put a Go Pro camera outside your car door and film the jambs and gaps flexing on a track or even while just driving on the street spiritedly. Yeah it's pricey and looks like a ricey gimmick to steal money, but it does work as intended. Not as good as a full cage, but not as intrusive or expensive either. Far better money spent than on those crappy rebadged TRD rotors made by DBA I'd say or the $50 sound tube tuning pipes.

i dont buy anything youre saying really. i dont care enough to really refute any of those points though. as grimspeed posted, the difference it made was about a couple hairs and thats over the course of 3 seconds. im sure that distance is well within the margin of error.

i cant think of a single performance upgrade that is more useless than excessive chassis bracing.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont buy anything youre saying really. i dont care enough to really refute any of those points though. as grimspeed posted, the difference it made was about a couple hairs and thats over the course of 3 seconds. im sure that distance is well within the margin of error.

LoL!

Oh so much "excessive" bracing.

http://www.7tune.com/new-release-the...-toyota-14r60/

Thankfully engineers don't care about the personal opinions of internet experts. It is within your right to ignore as much data and evidence that goes against your personal beliefs as you like.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i cant think of a single performance upgrade that is more useless than excessive chassis bracing.

Actually, I can.

Large wings on cars that never see track action.

-alex

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Actually, I can.

Large wings on cars that never see track action.

-alex

I'd vote for any intake that performs worse than stock in every way.

[DarkSunrise]

Save your money and track your car as is. It's fairly track-capable from the factory. Just needs brake pads and fluid, which I didn't see on your mod list. I'd start there before getting any braces or bushings.

As you start to track more, the next mod you'll want is an oil cooler.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

As you start to track more, the next mod you'll want is an oil cooler.

^^^This^^^ ...by a LONG shot.

I tracked once in August and learned my lesson. Swore off derping until I install a decent oil cooler. (family guys gotta save up for that shit) Don't forget thermostatically-controlled.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by abraxis

LoL!

Oh so much "excessive" bracing.

http://www.7tune.com/new-release-the...-toyota-14r60/

Thankfully engineers don't care about the personal opinions of internet experts. It is within your right to ignore as much data and evidence that goes against your personal beliefs as you like.

i would love to hear your opinions on fake hood scoops too and fake carbon fiber too. "engineers" have found a need for those on cars too. race cars have stickers too. stickers make cars faster? its not any different than the argument you are making right now.

Originally Posted by mav1178

Actually, I can.

Large wings on cars that never see track action.

-alex

wings absolutely have a larger performance advantage over strut tower bars in 2014.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i would love to hear your opinions on fake hood scoops too and fake carbon fiber too. "engineers" have found a need for those on cars too. race cars have stickers too. stickers make cars faster? its not any different than the argument you are making right now.

Lol, I'm sure in your mind discussing the benefits of triangulation in engineering is the same as putting a sticker on your car.

Let's not let science or logic get in the way of personal bias.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by fatoni

wings absolutely have a larger performance advantage over strut tower bars in 2014.

Of course, if one were to go to the track.

-alex