Phoenix Performance - Tuning and products in SA

[Dammod]

Originally Posted by WesleyG

I didnt reply to that thread, My sticker on my fuel flap says 98RON only...... wasnt a 95Ron sticker at all

Haha, looks like Toyota don't even bother putting a 95 sticker over.
Had one on my car and another BRZ, sneaky buggers @ Subaru, lol.

[sav]

Question.

One of the ECU's jobs is obviously to adapt, hence you're seeing IAM less than 1 because it's detected knock and is compensating, right?

I'm a bit skeptical about IAM=0.3 but lets assume it's true and that with your tune IAM=1 which would be good, right?

With the stock tune the map calls for example 20deg timing at a certain point if IAM=1. Now the fuel is just not good enough so it's using a 0.3 multiplier so now we're down to 6deg. If your map has been adjusted to call for 6degs then IAM will always be 1, not so?

Then my question is - why do we need a "safe" tune when the ECU is perfectly capable of compensating for different grades of fuel?

[steve99]

Originally Posted by sav

Question.

One of the ECU's jobs is obviously to adapt, hence you're seeing IAM less than 1 because it's detected knock and is compensating, right?

I'm a bit skeptical about IAM=0.3 but lets assume it's true and that with your tune IAM=1 which would be good, right?

With the stock tune the map calls for example 20deg timing at a certain point if IAM=1. Now the fuel is just not good enough so it's using a 0.3 multiplier so now we're down to 6deg. If your map has been adjusted to call for 6degs then IAM will always be 1, not so?

Then my question is - why do we need a "safe" tune when the ECU is perfectly capable of compensating for different grades of fuel?

IAM does not act on the overall ignition advance, iam only act on the amount of advance in the "knock correction max a" table this varies between zero and about 6 degrees depending on load and rpm. So at best Iam can remove about 6 degrees from timing. The timing is also adjusted by feedback knock control and fine learning knock control.

I am in Australia and we have 98 ron fuel and run same G series rom as you guys, i have seen cars with iam of between 0.5 and 0.7 running 98 ron fuel on stock tune. so iam of 0.3 would be believable on 95 ron.

The problem with running with IAM less than one is that the engine is constantly knocking, if no knock was detected iam would be one. So on 95 on stock tune engine knocks ecu pulls timing, but the ecu is always trying to return iam to one to it advances timing again by upping iam then engine knocks then it reduces iam, and cycle continues.

The ecu is quite agressive in pulling timing by iam reduction or flkc and generally pulls about twice the required amoiunt. so if you actually tune for 95 ron fuel you will actually get more power and smoother performance as the ecu is not constantly pulling and replacing timing and the engine is not constantly knocking and thats got to be better.

for more info see links below

[sav]

Originally Posted by steve99

IAM does not act on the overall ignition advance, iam only act on the amount of advance in the "knock correction max a" table this varies between zero and about 6 degrees depending on load and rpm. So at best Iam can remove about 6 degrees from timing. The timing is also adjusted by feedback knock control and fine learning knock control.

I am in Australia and we have 98 ron fuel and run same G series rom as you guys, i have seen cars with iam of between 0.5 and 0.7 running 98 ron fuel on stock tune. so iam of 0.3 would be believable on 95 ron.

The problem with running with IAM less than one is that the engine is constantly knocking, if no knock was detected iam would be one. So on 95 on stock tune engine knocks ecu pulls timing, but the ecu is always trying to return iam to one to it advances timing again by upping iam then engine knocks then it reduces iam, and cycle continues.

The ecu is quite agressive in pulling timing by iam reduction or flkc and generally pulls about twice the required amoiunt. so if you actually tune for 95 ron fuel you will actually get more power and smoother performance as the ecu is not constantly pulling and replacing timing and the engine is not constantly knocking and thats got to be better.

for more info see links below

Thanks a lot, that makes perfect sense. You should start doing maps for us, sounds like you know what you're doing.

[Dammod]

Originally Posted by sav

Question.

One of the ECU's jobs is obviously to adapt, hence you're seeing IAM less than 1 because it's detected knock and is compensating, right?

I'm a bit skeptical about IAM=0.3 but lets assume it's true and that with your tune IAM=1 which would be good, right?

With the stock tune the map calls for example 20deg timing at a certain point if IAM=1. Now the fuel is just not good enough so it's using a 0.3 multiplier so now we're down to 6deg. If your map has been adjusted to call for 6degs then IAM will always be 1, not so?

Then my question is - why do we need a "safe" tune when the ECU is perfectly capable of compensating for different grades of fuel?

Originally Posted by steve99

IAM does not act on the overall ignition advance, iam only act on the amount of advance in the "knock correction max a" table this varies between zero and about 6 degrees depending on load and rpm. So at best Iam can remove about 6 degrees from timing. The timing is also adjusted by feedback knock control and fine learning knock control.

I am in Australia and we have 98 ron fuel and run same G series rom as you guys, i have seen cars with iam of between 0.5 and 0.7 running 98 ron fuel on stock tune. so iam of 0.3 would be believable on 95 ron.

The problem with running with IAM less than one is that the engine is constantly knocking, if no knock was detected iam would be one. So on 95 on stock tune engine knocks ecu pulls timing, but the ecu is always trying to return iam to one to it advances timing again by upping iam then engine knocks then it reduces iam, and cycle continues.

The ecu is quite agressive in pulling timing by iam reduction or flkc and generally pulls about twice the required amoiunt. so if you actually tune for 95 ron fuel you will actually get more power and smoother performance as the ecu is not constantly pulling and replacing timing and the engine is not constantly knocking and thats got to be better.

for more info see links below

Thanks @steve99

Like Steve said, its good how aggressive the stock ECU is at pulling timing, but its that continuous cycle of it wanting to "test the waters" that is dangerous in the long term to engine (bearing, DI seals, pistons etc) life.

To add to this, its not just as simple as pulling a bit of timing. Yes, that could be a quick way to make the map safer (to a certain extent), but there is a WHOLE lot more that goes into making a proper tune, fully optimised for a certain grade of fuel, especially with the added complexity of DI/PI phasing in the FA20.


I would actually go as far as to say Aus 98RON is closer to the US grade 91.

I have seen IAMs ranging from 0 to 0.5 on the stock tune with 0.35 being the average on our 95RON fuel.
I have got another car coming in today with an intake and Perrin exhaust, I'm expecting the same results.

Will post the stock log up.

I highly recommend having a read at the links in @steve99 signature for anyone wanting to understand a bit more about how the ECU works.

[sav]

Thanks, should be interesting.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by sav

Thanks, should be interesting.

The other trick you can do if you have access to E85 or E90 fuels and your 95 petrol is ethanol free ie its not already E10.

Add 6 to8 litres of E85 to a full tank of 95 petrol. This will give you an E10to E15 mix which the engine and stock ecu tune will cope with, but it will bump your octane up about 3 points to about 98 ron and reduce your knock consideribly, giving better and smoother performance .

A good tune will be better as it will also adjust intake\exhaust vvt timing , ignition timing maf scaling di firing angles ect for better performance.

[Dammod]

Originally Posted by steve99

The other trick you can do if you have access to E85 or E90 fuels and your 95 petrol is ethanol free ie its not already E10.

Add 6 to8 litres of E85 to a full tank of 95 petrol. This will give you an E10to E15 mix which the engine and stock ecu tune will cope with, but it will bump your octane up about 3 points to about 98 ron and reduce your knock consideribly, giving better and smoother performance .

A good tune will be better as it will also adjust intake\exhaust vvt timing , ignition timing maf scaling di firing angles ect for better performance.

Yep that's a good way to bump the octane and a lot "cleaner" then some of the octane boosters we have which tend to foul plugs up.
Not as easy as a small bottle of OB but its my preferred choice if I was running the stock map.

I also say to people that if they are going to be using some sort of an OB, that they should use it all the time and not just now and again (referring to stock tune).

Reason being is that with a good octane fuel, the ECU will adjust the IAM back up and then if you decide on the next tank to go back to normal pump fuel, some severe knock will happen as you will have an IAM of 1 with timing advanced with 95 in the tank and it will have to knock for it to drop the IAM back down again.

Having a 95 octane tune however means no need for OB. If you did add OB and have one of our tunes, you will not notice a difference because the car will already be completely "happy" with 95.

You know a "tune" isn't too great when you add OB and the car feels amazing all of a sudden...that's a good sign the car wasn't very happy with the fuel it was on OR, its a ridiculously hot day, but even so, a good tune should take that into a account.

That's why we love logging and tuning in conditions like this:

I have heard of a few people with forced induction kits in SA saying how much better the car feels with OB...that makes me wonder about the quality of the tune for their fuel choice....


Attached is a log (STOCK MAP) of the car who came in yesterday for a tune. 0.2 IAM
His mods were a Perrin cat-back system with a Perrin DIF. 30 000km on the clock.
Good on him for not letting the car spend another 30 000km on the stock map

[steve99]

here is a graphical representation of that log

IAM=0.2
still pulling over 3 degrees around 6000 rpm FLKC
and still pulling 1 degrees FBKC

http://datazap.me/u/steve99/south-af...ata=2-20-27-28

[sav]

Originally Posted by Dammod

You know a "tune" isn't too great when you add OB and the car feels amazing all of a sudden...that's a good sign the car wasn't very happy with the fuel it was on

That's the thing - I've tried OB a couple of times and could feel zero difference at all.

I'm waiting for my Tactrix cable then I'd hopefully be able to see what's actually going on.

As for running OB then clean fuel - disconnect the battery and it should be back to 0.5 at least.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by sav

That's the thing - I've tried OB a couple of times and could feel zero difference at all.

I'm waiting for my Tactrix cable then I'd hopefully be able to see what's actually going on.

As for running OB then clean fuel - disconnect the battery and it should be back to 0.5 at least.

Stock tune IAM initial set to 0.7
Most tuned roms set IAM initial to 1

10%-15% E85 ethanol is cheapest octane booster and you actually burn it as fuel

[sav]

Sounds like I need to get my hands on some E85 and give it a try, thanks.

[Vic_RSA]

This may be a daft question...

There is a rumour that we soon may be getting 102 octane fuel at some garages in ZA. Now based on the stock tune designed for 98 RON would there be a benefit/risk in running such fuel daily - in your opinion?

Originally Posted by steve99

Stock tune IAM initial set to 0.7
Most tuned roms set IAM initial to 1

10%-15% E85 ethanol is cheapest octane booster and you actually burn it as fuel

[steve99]

Originally Posted by Vic_RSA

This may be a daft question...

There is a rumour that we soon may be getting 102 octane fuel at some garages in ZA. Now based on the stock tune designed for 98 RON would there be a benefit/risk in running such fuel daily - in your opinion?

In general you can run a fuel with a higher octane rating than your tune requires without problems.

But running a fuel with a lower octane rating than the tune requires is not good.


The benifit would be your engine will run smoother and produce a bit more power as the IAM (ignition advance multiplier) thats probably around 0.3 to 0.5 on 95 ron will return to 1 (no ecu reset required) once you run the 102 ron fuel. This will increase your ignition advance by 3 to 5 degrees degrees in places .

The ecu cannot take full advantage of the 102 ron fuel as its maps were done for 98 ron fuel, if you retuned for 102 you could maybe squeeze out a few more hp maybe 5 .

That 102 ron would be a good fuel to run at the track as when things get rearly hot your engine is more knock prone, so a tank of good fuel is good insurance for a track day.