If all else was equal, would you buy an electric?

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

It's predictable business strategy. You have to first produce high margin products to recoup developmental costs and of course those products will be aimed at the demographic that can afford them or in other words, they will be priced such that only that demo can afford them. Cars for "regular people" are by nature low margin and without the ability to cheaply scale up you simply cannot provide for that demo.

Apple isn't a fair comparison. They've essentially been making the same thing for a decade with only slight different variations and they've already mastered "scaling up". The reason their products are overpriced is a different marketing strategy than why Teslas are expensive. One is expensive because they have to be at this stage, the other is expensive because they can. It should be obvious which is which.

Not true. They don't have to make luxury cars. They could take that same electric tech and put it in a smaller, lighter, more basic car without all of the high tech amenities and luxury interior... but they aren't... they are just trying to appeal to the egos of execs and Silicon Valley tech guys.

I liked the original roadster they made using a Lotus chassis, but it was too expensive at over $100k.

Imagine if they partnered with Toyota and you had an FR-S with a Tesla power train. THAT would be a huge hit for enthusiasts AND environmentally conscious people wanting a good electric car on a budget.

I'd rather see them develop new chassis or partner with other companies to use their chassis than to just keep adding power to their luxury boat car...

[dirtymax]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Not true. They don't have to make luxury cars. They could take that same electric tech and put it in a smaller, lighter, more basic car without all of the high tech amenities and luxury interior... but they aren't... they are just trying to appeal to the egos of execs and Silicon Valley tech guys.

I liked the original roadster they made using a Lotus chassis, but it was too expensive at over $100k.

Imagine if they partnered with Toyota and you had an FR-S with a Tesla power train. THAT would be a huge hit for enthusiasts AND environmentally conscious people wanting a good electric car on a budget.

I'd rather see them develop new chassis or partner with other companies to use their chassis than to just keep adding power to their luxury boat car...

model3 tesla is working on is said to be around $30k

[wbradley]

Fuel cell electric makes the most sense if:

-The electricity generated to produce the hydrogen is clean/renewable
-Hydrogen stations are everywhere and the price is relatively low
-Fuel cell production continues to improve and reduce in cost. The latest gen of membrane tech developed in Korea looks promising and long lasting (catalyst life is limiting)
-batteries can stop eaiting up the world's finite lithium supply and have a long life span (batteries necessary for regenerative braking).

Fuel cell vehicles are clean, give off water vapour only and hydrogen filling is just about as fast as gasoline. The ~11 lb hydrogen tank in the Toyota fuel cell vehicle has a range of approx 450 km.

They will always be heavy though, but that's fine for many forms of transportation.

[BRZPDX]

Originally Posted by dirtymax

model3 tesla is working on is said to be around $30k

Just like the S3 starts at $41k, but I have never seen one below $47k.

$30k bare, average will be closer to $40, depending on range/battery pack/etc. I think it will be in the $50k's range, still $30 ~ $40k cheaper than the Model S.

Just like everyone hoping and dreaming that the FT1 is going to be a 40K car, this ain't gonna be a 30K car I guarantee it.

[Bristecom]

Would I ever buy full electric? No. Not unless it cost less than 10k and I had a backup gas-powered vehicle. The reason is because you can't take long trips in an electric vehicle. And if you forget to charge it, you might be screwed. Plus, the lack of engine noise is weird and boring.

[brianhj]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Would I ever buy full electric? No. Not unless it cost less than 10k and I had a backup gas-powered vehicle. The reason is because you can't take long trips in an electric vehicle. And if you forget to charge it, you might be screwed. Plus, the lack of engine noise is weird and boring.

This.

Or unless they had recharge stations all along every road. Fuck getting stranded man. And it's not like you can just take extra fuel with you. EV's are in such a premature stage right now.

[Teseo]

I hope i died old when that time come

[Ultramaroon]

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...y+swap+station

I'd be down for it.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

Not true. They don't have to make luxury cars..

Well, they don't have to make luxury cars.. they don't have to be successful in business either.

It's economics 101. Making a car for the everyman requires massive economies of scale. Something Musk didn't have and once you combine that reality with the fact that he's using very new modern tech (design, battery, motors etc) the production cost per unit is insane. Making something that's affordable to you or I simply wasn't an option. Nothing he was going to have for sale in the early stages was going to be cheap so the only option is to make it "up scale" so it at least appeals to the only group that would be able to afford it. Luxury was the only option.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by brianhj

And it's not like you can just take extra fuel with you. EV's are in such a premature stage right now.

Technically, you can. A gas generator in the trunk with a few gallons of gasoline.....

Oh wait, that's a Volt.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Would I ever buy full electric? No. Not unless it cost less than 10k and I had a backup gas-powered vehicle. The reason is because you can't take long trips in an electric vehicle. And if you forget to charge it, you might be screwed. Plus, the lack of engine noise is weird and boring.

Old, and becoming less valid arguments. Define "long road trip." Teslas have a range of ~240 miles, low on average but enough that you could travel a decent distance. Battery technology continues to improve every year (faster charge/more capacity). The advent of using supercapacitors is becoming more and more likely (more quickly charged, much longer lifetime, etc.). Tesla is leading the charge (pun intended) on building infrastructure through their "Supercharger" stations. Trust me, if you owned an EV, you would probably be like me and have that thing plugged in whenever you could.

Look at it this way--there are a decent amount of Nissan Leafs and Teslas on the road now that if people were having issues with charge, you would be seeing them off to the side of the road fairly often. I haven't seen one at the side of the road yet, other than in parking spaces--have you?

The issue here is that this advent of automotive technology (EVs, fuel cells, etc.) needs to happen. Oil will not be here forever, no matter how conservative or efficient we become in using it. Its better to get ahead of the problem then to deal with a global oil crisis when the final supplies are tapped and we are looking at $200+ USD per barrel.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Look at it this way--there are a decent amount of Nissan Leafs and Teslas on the road now that if people were having issues with charge, you would be seeing them off to the side of the road fairly often. I haven't seen one at the side of the road yet, other than in parking spaces--have you?

Not sure I buy that argument. All it really means is people adjust and live within the limits of the range of their vehicles. No one that owns a Tesla is going to drive it from Key West, Florida to Nome, Alaska without first preplanning their charging route. A "gasser" would just get in their car and go. Both would get there, but if the Tesla driver didn't preplan there would be a lot of range anxiety on the trip.

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

The issue here is that this advent of automotive technology (EVs, fuel cells, etc.) needs to happen. Oil will not be here forever, no matter how conservative or efficient we become in using it. Its better to get ahead of the problem then to deal with a global oil crisis when the final supplies are tapped and we are looking at $200+ USD per barrel.

I do agree with this, we need an alternative fuel. I'm a bigger fan of fuel cells than EVs but eventually one or more will take over. I'm thinking its more likely to become a multi-fuel system similar to what we have with diesel and gas now. The service station business will adopt whatever fuel is needed in sufficient quantities to be profitable.

The infrastructure does need to be brand agnostic though. Tesla building super-chargers that only work with Tesla vehicles will have minimal impact in moving the needle. Not sure that's what Tesla is doing because frankly the vehicles don't interest me beyond a passing curiosity.

[Tcoat]

I think that we have strayed way far from the original question here.
"If all things were equal..." would imply a good range with a short refuel time. If the car had a 500 mile range to a charge and recharge took 5 minutes or so that would even the playing field considerably.
Now, of course that is not yet the case but even at a range of 200 +/- miles they are still miles ahead (pun intended) of just a few years ago when we were looking at 50 or 60 miles per charge. During that period the recharge time has also been reduced significantly and made them far more practical for day to day use.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I think that we have strayed way far from the original question here.

I think it morphed a bit into how do we get to equal, but you are correct.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

"If all things were equal..." would imply a good range with a short refuel time. If the car had a 500 mile range to a charge and recharge took 5 minutes or so that would even the playing field considerably.

It also implies the infrastructure is there equally (there needs to be enough infrastructure so you don't have to plan a trip around where you can charge, regardless of the range within reason)

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Now, of course that is not yet the case but even at a range of 200 +/- miles they are still miles ahead (pun intended) of just a few years ago when we were looking at 50 or 60 miles per charge. During that period the recharge time has also been reduced significantly and made them far more practical for day to day use.

I agree, but we are no where close to a wide enough range of vehicles with a 200+ mile range to be practical. If I could get a motorcycle with a 200 mile range today, I would buy one as a commuter/weekend toy. The only one I know that meets the range is the Brutus V9 but is $40,000! Even with the federal and state tax incentives (which need to go away in my opinion) that is stupid expensive.