How satisfied are you with your FR-S/BRZ?

[strat61caster]

Warning, felt like rambling so here it goes. No need to respond to my b.s.

Originally Posted by P86RAVES

Yet none of them bought one. If someone with the means believes this car is all that they say it is, yet passes on it that says a lot.

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I certainly get your point - all of the folks you listed above have income sufficient for them to purchase the absolute best in their eyes.

It's a weird thing to look at people with lots of money and see what they drive and compare that to the car that we're measuring. Quite simply I can't fathom any of those people getting in an FR-S daily and it is most definitely not a knock on the car, it has to do with the average person's lifestyle and what they need out of a vehicle.

Most of those people have families, their primary car needs to drop kids off at school and get them to the office reliably and since they have the money comfortably. Strike one on the 86. That would relegate the 86 to weekend duty, if I had a weekend only car with an unlimited budget it'd be something a helluva lot more interesting than a Subaru, any classic car from any era, true toys like Ariel's and Ford GT's, Italian exotics, old motorcycles, those are the kind of cars those guys have and it's not a slight against the many excellent cars built today like the Mustang GT, Miata, or 86. The fact is better toys exist and the jack of all trades will always be the master of none. Where does that leave the 86? Why it's for the rest of us who don't have that luxury, who need a car to do it all reliably while putting a smile on our faces. In 10-20 years I'm sure you'll see a reviewer, enthusiast, presenter with an 86 because the car means something to him/her the way that an old motorbike means something to James May or a Land Rover to Richard Hammond or any number of well known writers with their own favorite that I don't remember because I'm not terribly into that world and they typically don't publicize to show their bias.

idk I just think that's a poor measure of a car whether a handful of people spend money on it. They certainly aren't running around in Mustang GT's as the internet seems to imply so what's the point?

Originally Posted by AsianStyle

However, lets all not kid ourselves about the FA20. The engine is a POS hand downs the worst part about this car. This car should/would be heralded by everyone if it wasn't for this crappy engine. Yes, it really isn't that bad (decent mpg, decently reliable, etc..), but compared the the rest of the car and its chassis (pretty much perfect for the given cost) the engine is pretty fucken bad.

I really don't like this point. You're right, the engine is not the bright spot of the car, that's a loosing battle. But I think painting it as a stain is a huge misnomer. The engine can break loose even the stickiest of road tires (hell I did it this morning on my way to work by accident) and the car as a whole delivers imo.

As for underpowered chassis, I think we live in a world that's forgotten what driving is about.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...dgets-and-men/

The more I think about it, the more I'm into the supercharger argument, I'll probably get one in a year or two. I'll be into the car approximately as much as I would have been with a Mustang GT at ~75% of the power and ~75% of the weight. Or a 370Z minus 300 pounds. People keep wanting an STI, a car with more power, but I highly doubt Toyobaru can match what the aftermarket can offer for under $10-$15k putting this car squarely in the $35k price range, maybe they'll find 10-20 hp for a very small price increase but that won't make the benchracers run out and buy one even if a magazine manages to get 0-60 in 5.9 seconds.

[dpgfunk]

no

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by humdizzle

best post in the thread.

what i dont get is how people are disappointed in the car AFTER taking it for a test drive lol. did you guys just take a 5 minute stroll around the block and then go and sign the papers? My salesman showed me the local backroads, how to turn off the traction system, and after 15 minutes i was sold.

You didn't notice the down sides though? I've driven both BRZ and FR-S... I wasn't sold. I liked some things and disliked others.

The biggest pro: the quick steering and steering feel.

Second biggest pro: stock suspension quality in terms of handling.

The biggest con: the engine is not exciting... not in character, sound, or power.

Second biggest con: feels very much like the front-engine car that it is, which, honestly, kinda feels inferior to cars like the S2000, RX7, etc. which pivot much more immediately due to engine placement.

Ultimate opinion after evaluating those pros and cons: It's a very good looking, good steering & handling modern Silvia from a different company, but, unfortunately, with an underwhelming engine.

I think many people who weren't instantly "sold" have similar thoughts.

Don't get me wrong, I still want one lol and if I had much more money, I'd buy one anyway (but not INSTEAD of or OVER cars like the S2000/RX7).

[AsianStyle]

Originally Posted by humdizzle

best post in the thread.

what i dont get is how people are disappointed in the car AFTER taking it for a test drive lol. did you guys just take a 5 minute stroll around the block and then go and sign the papers? My salesman showed me the local backroads, how to turn off the traction system, and after 15 minutes i was sold.

Not sure if this is addressed to me or not, but I'm not disappointed in the car as a whole. I actually love the car and stated above that I can't think of a car I would rather drive given its price point.

As I mentioned above the real issue is how great the car is that in comparison the engine is severely lack luster. I'm not talking about power just the overall engine quality/soul/feel. I enjoy the car despite the engine. During my test drive before buying the car I noticed it, but as I stated before there is no other car I'd rather drive.

[AsianStyle]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I really don't like this point. You're right, the engine is not the bright spot of the car, that's a loosing battle. But I think painting it as a stain is a huge misnomer. The engine can break loose even the stickiest of road tires (hell I did it this morning on my way to work by accident) and the car as a whole delivers imo.

As for underpowered chassis, I think we live in a world that's forgotten what driving is about.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...dgets-and-men/

The more I think about it, the more I'm into the supercharger argument, I'll probably get one in a year or two. I'll be into the car approximately as much as I would have been with a Mustang GT at ~75% of the power and ~75% of the weight. Or a 370Z minus 300 pounds. People keep wanting an STI, a car with more power, but I highly doubt Toyobaru can match what the aftermarket can offer for under $10-$15k putting this car squarely in the $35k price range, maybe they'll find 10-20 hp for a very small price increase but that won't make the benchracers run out and buy one even if a magazine manages to get 0-60 in 5.9 seconds.

My rant about the engine really has nothing to do with power, but just the overall quality of the thing.

It isn't the worst engine in the practical sense (good mpg, decently reliable, etc..), but for a car that is supposed to be all about feel/passion/soul the engine is lacking. The torque dip has a lot to do with it and yes there are aftermarket ways of fixing it, but imagine the car without the torque dip and making noises that brings confidence to the driver that this is how the car wants to be driven.

I find it hard to believe that everyone, can't think of one think they would think would make the car better than how it comes in stock form.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You are both talking out of your ass! If you want real speed it is prune juice or nothing!!!!!!!

Need to find out if they were taking pulp into consideration too. Would definitely impact performance

[Jond63]

The performance of prune juice is just too high for me, so I settled for Metamucil. And I'm happy, dammit!!!!!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by AsianStyle

My rant about the engine really has nothing to do with power, but just the overall quality of the thing.

It isn't the worst engine in the practical sense (good mpg, decently reliable, etc..), but for a car that is supposed to be all about feel/passion/soul the engine is lacking. The torque dip has a lot to do with it and yes there are aftermarket ways of fixing it, but imagine the car without the torque dip and making noises that brings confidence to the driver that this is how the car wants to be driven.

I find it hard to believe that everyone, can't think of one think they would think would make the car better than how it comes in stock form.

I'm baffled by the torque dip complaint, I can't think of a scenario where it would actually impact my driving.

If I'm not in a hurry, just driving around town I don't need to go above 3.5k. Period, end of story, I could drive this car just about anywhere without crossing into the torque dip and it's got a great lump of torque between 2.5k-3.5k, some dyno runs have the peak torque down there.

If I need to get up to speed, I need to GO, there is always a gear that puts me above 4.5k. If I'm coming from a stop I can always rev the engine and feather the clutch to start off in the powerband. If I'm putting along in second gear (i.e. freeway slow lane into the fast lane) I've always been able to double clutch into first (did it at 25mph a few weeks ago) and take off if I didn't anticipate that and just leave it in first in the first place.

Yes, I've put my foot on the floor from 2.5k up to 5k+ in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, but never for any reason other than laziness or my own entertainment.

If it's such a huge detriment to ownership there is a relatively accessible solution: header + tune has been proven to "enhance the sound" thus giving the driver the inspiration you want and flatten the torque curve. OFT offers an off the shelf solution, no fuss.

To your last thing, I guess you're saying that everyone wants to change something on their car? I have to say that I'm extremely happy with it, 2 years on and all that's different is tires (Dunlop Direzza ZII so it survives track days), brake pads (OEM overheated), and increased camber up front via camber bolts with an alignment to preserve the front tires and reduce understeer. Those changes would be detrimental to most of the people buying the car that don't want loud dusty pads and tires with a shorter lifespan. It will be many years before the modded cars outnumber the stock ones, the vast majority of people simply don't muck with their cars like people around here do.

[JS + BRZ]

No need to feed the trolls one by one.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by JS + BRZ

No need to feed the trolls one by one.

How else will I get my forum sainthood?

[AsianStyle]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I'm baffled by the torque dip complaint, I can't think of a scenario where it would actually impact my driving.

Yes, I've put my foot on the floor from 2.5k up to 5k+ in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, but never for any reason other than laziness or my own entertainment.

If it's such a huge detriment to ownership there is a relatively accessible solution: header + tune has been proven to "enhance the sound" thus giving the driver the inspiration you want and flatten the torque curve. OFT offers an off the shelf solution, no fuss.

To your last thing, I guess you're saying that everyone wants to change something on their car? I have to say that I'm extremely happy with it, 2 years on and all that's different is tires (Dunlop Direzza ZII so it survives track days), brake pads (OEM overheated), and increased camber up front via camber bolts with an alignment to preserve the front tires and reduce understeer. Those changes would be detrimental to most of the people buying the car that don't want loud dusty pads and tires with a shorter lifespan. It will be many years before the modded cars outnumber the stock ones, the vast majority of people simply don't muck with their cars like people around here do.

Just a general statement first. I think I repeated this several times, but I love this car, own a first year model of the car, and do not want to drive anything else.

Now with that out of the way again. The whole "for my own entertainment" is exactly my point. I never said I didn't want the torque dip for some practical sense to pass cars or any of that nonsense. I just want the car to do what it does best better (Entertainment/Fun).

If the car kept building linear power and urged you to push it, I know I would have more enjoyment. I'm not pushing this on anyone, I'm just stating my own opinion and was trying to bridge the gap between people who think this car can do no wrong and the people who are just out right bashing it.

Also, I believe I mentioned that there are aftermarket ways to fix the torque dip, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. For me personally I don't want to go through warranty headaches and would prefer not to mod until after warranty. I already had tons of problems just trying to get my 2013 re-flashed to the newest ECU tune.

Once the warranty is over I will seriously be looking into a JRSC with the CARB tune to avoid possible emission headaches.

Just to ask a straight question. You believe the FA20 is the best engine for this car? You have 0 complaints about this car at all and it is perfect? If so great for you.

I for one think they could have done better and if not I would have gladly paid more for them to give me better.

[soulreapersteve]

Originally Posted by humdizzle

best post in the thread.

what i dont get is how people are disappointed in the car AFTER taking it for a test drive lol. did you guys just take a 5 minute stroll around the block and then go and sign the papers? My salesman showed me the local backroads, how to turn off the traction system, and after 15 minutes i was sold.

Yup, same here. I was still not 100 percent certain on getting this car. After heading over to the local dealership and sales guy started sliding around corners and letting me do the same (though not as hard), I was completely sold.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by AsianStyle

Just to ask a straight question. You believe the FA20 is the best engine for this car? You have 0 complaints about this car at all and it is perfect? If so great for you.

I for one think they could have done better and if not I would have gladly paid more for them to give me better.

First off I'll apologize for rehashing points you already made, I have skimmed some of the essays here. Second, I respect the things you want out of a car. To your question: YES, absolutely, it is the best choice of engine for this car available today. It would have been my second choice of engine.

The go to complaint for many people is that they want a Toyota I4 for durability and aftermarket. Go back and read the articles with engineers about the development of this car, low c.g. was a huge priority, a car that out of the box handles excellently and rides flat with a suspension that is not expensive or harsh was the goal and that leads to two engine choices: wankel or boxer. An I4 would take away from the out of the box handling by raising the c.g. look at the cutaways from the recent road and track article, it's dramatic how low the powertrain sits in this car compared to the Mustang and BMW, or even the new Miata. They were really proud that the c.g. was less than a Cayman and most Ferrari's and I think it is a not insignificant contributor to how good this car feels as it gets put through it's paces.

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/tada-how-to...eated-the-gt86

http://h.dropcanvas.com/nq8iq/DSC_0660.JPG

http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-cont...ta-cutaway.jpg

So with that in mind tossing out Inline and V configurations, I am totally onboard with either a boxer or wankel. Personally I would have loved a wankel, a hypothetical partnership with Mazda is very exciting to me on paper. Screaming rotary + a Miata derived chassis I think would have had a very unique personality. Of course the economics of that don't bear out, (no need to discuss further here) so we're left with a boxer.

Barring a ground up engine which would have added a lot of money to the pricetag, two manufacturers build boxers with authority: Porsche and Subaru. With VW going head to head with Toyota in sales figures specifically targeting their market position that collaboration is unlikely to happen. So Subaru, their flat six is large and unimpressive at ~260 hp/ft-lbs and the only flat four they produce over 200 hp is turbocharged (EJ, with the associated lag called out as antithetical to the goal of this car in the article linked above and an aging design) and rather thirsty. Note that there is an imposed requirement of 2.0L and emissions in order to keep the car affordable worldwide and not get slammed by certain regional tariffs.

And we get to the FA20. If you haven't read the Toyota UK blog above it's a really good insight to the thought process of the design of the car along with the history and realities of the project. Some claim it's biased but I don't think the influences and realities are misrepresented, they seem logical to me.

Humans are fickle, no car is perfect. I wish this car had more character, I wish it fought me a little bit, that there would be a struggle to getting my laptimes down, and I wouldn't say no to a more aggressive design with less creature comforts or increased durability (oil temps, axles breaking under high loads, coil pack failures) or a transaxle. That in no way diminishes the car as presented, I am very impressed with what Toyobaru put out and I find most harsh criticisms come from either personal bias (some people just don't care for handling capabilities) or a lack of perspective about what's on offer. I really can't think of an engine on offer that would deliver as the FA20 does without serious detriments elsewhere in the car.

Difference of opinion is a good thing, keeps the wheels of the mind turning.



Edit: I gave up on the reflash, we'll see if the DI seals melt on my 12/12 built car, Toyota will replace them if they do before 60k and I have no problem replacing them myself later or if warranty is denied. Sucks but live and learn, I'll probably never buy a new car for myself again (the S.O. deserves one if she wants) unless Mazda makes a new RX. Dealership experience has been my #1 disappointment and that's not a mark on Toyota but rather the U.S. auto industry that Toyota is forced to sell within.

[humdizzle]

I think the fa20 is a good option. They wanted a very low center of gravity. So it had to be a boxer. Adding a turbo would add lag, there is no way around that. A flat 6 would have probably made it pricier than a 370z.

Sound is subjective. The car doesn't sound bad to me. My gtr and m3 sounded worse when stock. Gtr doesn't sound like anything and i6 m3 has a really annoying rasp.

Everyone's tastes are different. Luckily there are alot of aftermarket solutions