My 86 Experience at Tokyo Dealership. Full TRD trim 86 on display

[just86]

i wish scion never existed

[TuxedoCartman]

Originally Posted by mattles

Fuk'n sig'd. Scion will forever in my brain be known as 'The Communist Model of Car Sales.'

<Looks suspiciously at all of those who pre-ordered in Firestorm Red> Anything you wanna tell us, fellas? LOL...

I agree with Celicadude too, especially about MINI's success with allowing customers to customize their cars in any of a million different ways. I'll admit I never gave it much thought before, but that would be spectacular: being able to order an FR-S/ BRZ/ 86 where you have total carte blanche choice of options for the car. Pick or choose the upholstery, interior color, headlamps, radio... they could even offer the TRD parts and body kits right from the get-go. Want leather seats, but no nav? No problem! Want HID's and 16" wheels? No problem! Keep the Pure Pricing (I $%#*ing HATE haggling!), and I think Toyota would have a customer for life in me.

[luxmn]

i think it's not about how much this car can bring in for Toyota but how much they might lose in sale of Camry/Corolla/4runner if the accountant/banker/middle manager/retiree got caught driver a car that has the same brand as a art major student with a mohawk's xA. They need a stepping brand to separate Toyota from the "kids". Toyota doesn't care if they can sell a few thousands more sport car that costs the same as a fully equipped Camry, they are and want to continue selling MILLIONS of cars.

Overall, if I were Toyota strategist, I'd say Toyota doesn't need the FR-S, Scion does, desperately. At&t was recovering from the antitrust breakdown until they got the iPhone exclusively for 3 years, look where they are now. Scion needs a car that will bring people to the brand, hesitantly maybe but a new customer nevertheless.

With all that said, that gt86 is on a different class as far as aesthetic goes. thanks for posting

[ZetaVI]

Fun and entertaining story!

[mattles]

The real problem is that Toyota is the new GM. They don't have to even sell cars, people come in droves to Toyota stealerships and gobble up whatever they can get, it seems that toyota speculative consumers dont really care what they get as long as its reasonably economical and within their price range.

Its these kind of lazy and dimwitted consumers that allow Toyota dealerships to be just as lazy and dimwitted. Toyota is just not an enthusiast brand, as much as they would have you think it. BMW, Mini, Mazda, even Nissan to an extent caters more specifically to enthusiasts.

Hopefully the FR-S will show Toyota/Scion the light of catering to enthusiasts, and maybe they will continue to manufacture at least one or two cars that sports car enthusiasts like ourselves can really look at and say "I want two of those right now."

EDIT: Case in point, my girlfriend went with me to take delivery of the FR-S. She was so appalled at the entire buying experience at the Toyota dealership, she is only considering Honda, Nissan, Mazda, and Mini for her new car shopping next month. Shes got a 96 Accord and desperately wants something a bit faster, prettier, and smaller.

[TuxedoCartman]

Originally Posted by mattles

The real problem is that Toyota is the new GM. They don't have to even sell cars, people come in droves to Toyota stealerships and gobble up whatever they can get, it seems that toyota speculative consumers dont really care what they get as long as its reasonably economical and within their price range.

Its these kind of lazy and dimwitted consumers that allow Toyota dealerships to be just as lazy and dimwitted. Toyota is just not an enthusiast brand, as much as they would have you think it. BMW, Mini, Mazda, even Nissan to an extent caters more specifically to enthusiasts.

Hopefully the FR-S will show Toyota/Scion the light of catering to enthusiasts, and maybe they will continue to manufacture at least one or two cars that sports car enthusiasts like ourselves can really look at and say "I want two of those right now."

EDIT: Case in point, my girlfriend went with me to take delivery of the FR-S. She was so appalled at the entire buying experience at the Toyota dealership, she is only considering Honda, Nissan, Mazda, and Mini for her new car shopping next month. Shes got a 96 Accord and desperately wants something a bit faster, prettier, and smaller.

This, this, a thousand times this!

I think this is why I find myself concern-trolling Toyota over their Scion brand more than I mean to. See, I want this car to do phenomenally well. I want Toyota to have to redesign the Tundra to haul all the cash they make off of this car. But most importantly, I want them to realize why they will make so much profit: sports car enthusiasts.

The general consensus Japanese auto manufacturers had of the American car-buying public from the mid-90's to the mid-00's, was that we did not buy sports cars. And god help us, we did as a nation go through a bit of an SUV craze around that time. But I feel there were other factors at work there, as well. Nisan has straight up said they didn't offer the SR20DET in American 240SX's, because they thought Americans didn't like turbos. Yet I wonder how many Americans didn't buy that car because it didn't have a turbo? As for the third-gen RX-7, 300ZX, and Supra... they were very expensive when they first went on sale; which, if you'll notice, was around the time Ford was getting rave reviews over the redesign of their Mustang.

Now, I'm a HUGE FD3S fan. Huge. But let's be realistic here, which is going to sell more? A mid-$30k price for a two-seater that was cramped even for short people, and had a specialty engine nobody knew how to work on... or a stylish, well-marketed classic marque name that you can get in V-8 Cobra trim, and can be serviced anywhere for cheap, for only $24k? Personally, I think all the Japanese sports car manufacturers got caught flat-footed by the resurgence of cheap American muscle that looked as good as it ran (public opinion, not mine). The 240z used to be the simple, affordable every-man's sports car, and had become a $45k behemoth.

Where was I? ...oh yes, concern trolling Toyota. I do worry when it comes to these boxer-sisters, we may be looking at a perfect storm of mediocre sales that will send the wrong message to sales analysts in Toyota HQ. As I've said previously, I know there's plenty of people who won't even consider looking at an FR-S because it's a Scion (mind you, I don't want to argue whether their reasons are valid or stupid; I just want to acknowledge they exist). But should those turned off by Scion be willing to check out the BRZ, well... have you read some the reviews of some of the Subaru dealers on this board? I'm not kidding when I say that I think half the dealerships are kept afloat solely because of enthusiasts like ourselves. Between price-markups, mandatory upgrades, and other dishonest sales practices, any right-minded car buyer would look elsewhere. I will say unequivocally that every single BRZ sold this year will go to an enthusiast; no one will walk into a Subaru showroom and be sold on the car by the dealer. Now add in the escalating horsepower wars going on in both American muscle cars and the rally specials. To a non-enthusiast, horsepower can be a big draw.

So Joe "my '92 Solara finally broke down" Shmoe is shopping for cars, and wants something fun. He drove by a Scion lot one time, and all he saw were weird little orange vans and what looked like Smart cars, so he's not going in there. Car and Driver said the new Subaru BRZ is pretty good, so he goes to take a look... but the dealer wants $3k over MSRP, won't allow test drives, and is generally a **** about the whole thing. Now, if you're Joe Schmoe, why exactly would you pursue either of these cars instead of opting for the more practical AND fast STi (on the same lot as the BRZ, and not that much more), or for a new Mustang GT, which is also not much more AND has more horsepower than GOD!!! (or most previous year's Cobra models, whichever comes first). In short, the BRZ and FR-S look rather puny on paper, and dealerships (or brand image, in Scion's case) are doing seemingly everything they can to drive average car buyers away from this car.

I worry then that number-crunchers back at HQ are going to look at sales and interest in America, compare it to sales of other cars here and sales of 86's / BRZ's in Europe and Japan, and conclude that Americans simply still aren't interested in sports cars. Which is why I want to climb to the top of a tall building with a megaphone and yell at them, "WE DO!!! WE DO WANT SPORTS CARS!!! YOU'RE JUST NOT SELLING THEM TO US RIGHT!!!"

...or, maybe I'm wrong about the whole thing. I'll admit, it is difficult to see the big picture clearly when you know you're an enthusiast.

[schiffer4]

Sugoi! Your story made me think of my experience in Japan as well. I went there for 10 days for experiencing the culture. From home-staying to renting hotels and busing to shinkansen I'd have to say everything was so organized. Though it is a crowded country, especially in Shibuya, everything was kept like anyone would want it to be. I can totally relate to your experience. Though I did not visit Japan's auto dealership, this doesn't surprise me at all. Even at 7/11 they would treat their customers like "kami-sama". Same as you, my Japanese is horrible. Somehow still, those 10days were like a Disneyland experience. It was so much fun that the language barrier was like hidden just as you mentioned in your story. Happy you had so much fun in Japan! It makes me want to go back again just to get some part for my pre-ordered BRZ as well.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by mattles

The real problem is that Toyota is the new GM. They don't have to even sell cars, people come in droves to Toyota stealerships and gobble up whatever they can get, it seems that toyota speculative consumers dont really care what they get as long as its reasonably economical and within their price range.

Its these kind of lazy and dimwitted consumers that allow Toyota dealerships to be just as lazy and dimwitted. Toyota is just not an enthusiast brand, as much as they would have you think it. BMW, Mini, Mazda, even Nissan to an extent caters more specifically to enthusiasts.

Hopefully the FR-S will show Toyota/Scion the light of catering to enthusiasts, and maybe they will continue to manufacture at least one or two cars that sports car enthusiasts like ourselves can really look at and say "I want two of those right now."

EDIT: Case in point, my girlfriend went with me to take delivery of the FR-S. She was so appalled at the entire buying experience at the Toyota dealership, she is only considering Honda, Nissan, Mazda, and Mini for her new car shopping next month. Shes got a 96 Accord and desperately wants something a bit faster, prettier, and smaller.

Maybe it was just a bad dealership. It's true that some brands have consistently good service (Lexus) and some have consistently poor service (Mitsubishi), but maybe you were just treated to a grubby dealer?

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

LOL... the people at the dealership were so freakin' accommodating and friendly, I think they would have done it for me if I had asked them to. Both Kaori and the parts guy seemed genuinely distraught when I told them we hadn't gotten any TRD parts in America yet, and our cars only came with one interior color choice. I kid you not, my saleslady just kept coming back to that point, like she thought Scion was being deliberately mean to us. "But... picking out colors inside and outside to match, is the most fun of buying a new car!"

LOL... she was adorable.

Marriage material.

QUICK GET HER! SHE'S JDM.

[crazyyankeefan]

Scion is a crappy brand. It just gives people the impression that's one below Toyota, which Toyota actually made it to be cheap and unclassy. For this car, I would rather get the BRZ any day.

Btw, the 370Z in the US is exactly the same as the Japanese version, and of course the NISMO version is also available here.

[luxmn]

Just to add to the discussion, I believe car company nowadays are trying to be Apple or at least Asus and avoid the traditional business model of Sony.

The lesson is: you only need one good, solid product, at a time, to gain market. Apple is too well known example so I don't need to explain but look at Asus. They first get recognition with the eee netbook even though they have made great notebooks for a long time before that. Then they really became a significant player in the US market with the introduction of the Transformer tablet. Or HTC, they used to make Made-in-Taiwan phones that no one gave a shit about, they hit a home run with the EVO4G and now they are the heavy hitter in the smart phone industry.

My point being, Scion will take all the hits from the people that hate on the brand gracefully (or they should) because at least now they have people willing to talk about the brand, then they will change their brand image one car at a time. Once the FR-S is a solid hit (think iPhone), they will be cutting the xA, xB (think iPod classic) and improving tC (think iPod touch). If anything, I think this movement in Scion will push Toyota to improve their pathetic lineup of plastic box Corolla (think Mac mini before Apple prime time) and econobox Cam---yawn---.

The way Jack Hollis put it, Toyota is a giant Titanic size boat, it can't afford to mess around with the brand image even though the change is obvious, if it ain't broken don't fix it motto. Scion is what will bring changes. Whatever just my 2 cents. I'm bored.

[YukiHachiRoku]

Originally Posted by luxmn

Just to add to the discussion, I believe car company nowadays are trying to be Apple or at least Asus and avoid the traditional business model of Sony.

The lesson is: you only need one good, solid product, at a time, to gain market. Apple is too well known example so I don't need to explain but look at Asus. They first get recognition with the eee netbook even though they have made great notebooks for a long time before that. Then they really became a significant player in the US market with the introduction of the Transformer tablet. Or HTC, they used to make Made-in-Taiwan phones that no one gave a shit about, they hit a home run with the EVO4G and now they are the heavy hitter in the smart phone industry.

My point being, Scion will take all the hits from the people that hate on the brand gracefully (or they should) because at least now they have people willing to talk about the brand, then they will change their brand image one car at a time. Once the FR-S is a solid hit (think iPhone), they will be cutting the xA, xB (think iPod classic) and improving tC (think iPod touch). If anything, I think this movement in Scion will push Toyota to improve their pathetic lineup of plastic box Corolla (think Mac mini before Apple prime time) and econobox Cam---yawn---.

The way Jack Hollis put it, Toyota is a giant Titanic size boat, it can't afford to mess around with the brand image even though the change is obvious, if it ain't broken don't fix it motto. Scion is what will bring changes. Whatever just my 2 cents. I'm bored.

and my ASUS P6T deluxe V2 Gaming Motherboard is a Skyline R34 Vspec!

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by luxmn

Just to add to the discussion, I believe car company nowadays are trying to be Apple or at least Asus and avoid the traditional business model of Sony.

The lesson is: you only need one good, solid product, at a time, to gain market. Apple is too well known example so I don't need to explain but look at Asus. They first get recognition with the eee netbook even though they have made great notebooks for a long time before that. Then they really became a significant player in the US market with the introduction of the Transformer tablet. Or HTC, they used to make Made-in-Taiwan phones that no one gave a shit about, they hit a home run with the EVO4G and now they are the heavy hitter in the smart phone industry.

My point being, Scion will take all the hits from the people that hate on the brand gracefully (or they should) because at least now they have people willing to talk about the brand, then they will change their brand image one car at a time. Once the FR-S is a solid hit (think iPhone), they will be cutting the xA, xB (think iPod classic) and improving tC (think iPod touch). If anything, I think this movement in Scion will push Toyota to improve their pathetic lineup of plastic box Corolla (think Mac mini before Apple prime time) and econobox Cam---yawn---.

The way Jack Hollis put it, Toyota is a giant Titanic size boat, it can't afford to mess around with the brand image even though the change is obvious, if it ain't broken don't fix it motto. Scion is what will bring changes. Whatever just my 2 cents. I'm bored.

I agree with most of the parts, except for HTC actually being a poor example here. People have been blasting HTC for making way too many goddamn phones. They literally come out with a new one every month or two, and a lot of consumers don't like that because by the time next month, your brand-new $200 HTC smartphone with 2-yr contract will be obsolete already.

You can't really compare Scion to Apple, because it would be an insult to Apple. Apple makes beautifully designed, top quality products, while Toyota makes crappy, cheap versions of some cars and brands them as Scion in the US. Although the engine is the same, reliability is the same, the interior materials just feel like cheap plastic overall. Not to mention their marketing direction for Scion is not aiming toward "people who are willing to pay more for better stuff". You won't find a single person would associate the Scion brand with class.

Just by looking at FR-S and BRZ, I know there's a price difference, but the interior of FR-S clearly looks cheap when compared side-by-side with the BRZ. Why can't Toyota make the FR-S with the same nice interior of 86 (higher trim level)?

[TuxedoCartman]

Originally Posted by luxmn

Just to add to the discussion, I believe car company nowadays are trying to be Apple or at least Asus and avoid the traditional business model of Sony.

The lesson is: you only need one good, solid product, at a time, to gain market. Apple is too well known example so I don't need to explain but look at Asus. They first get recognition with the eee netbook even though they have made great notebooks for a long time before that. Then they really became a significant player in the US market with the introduction of the Transformer tablet. Or HTC, they used to make Made-in-Taiwan phones that no one gave a shit about, they hit a home run with the EVO4G and now they are the heavy hitter in the smart phone industry.

My point being, Scion will take all the hits from the people that hate on the brand gracefully (or they should) because at least now they have people willing to talk about the brand, then they will change their brand image one car at a time. Once the FR-S is a solid hit (think iPhone), they will be cutting the xA, xB (think iPod classic) and improving tC (think iPod touch). If anything, I think this movement in Scion will push Toyota to improve their pathetic lineup of plastic box Corolla (think Mac mini before Apple prime time) and econobox Cam---yawn---.

The way Jack Hollis put it, Toyota is a giant Titanic size boat, it can't afford to mess around with the brand image even though the change is obvious, if it ain't broken don't fix it motto. Scion is what will bring changes. Whatever just my 2 cents. I'm bored.

Hmm... (I want you to know, I'm making my serious face, and stroking my beard at the moment)

My response to that is two fold. The first bit is that Toyota corporate agreed to green-light this project because they were concerned their image had grown too stale, boring. They wanted to say, "Hey, we can have fun driving too!" Maybe that was just for the Japanese market though, I dunno...

But Ford (of all companies) has done an outstanding job lately of offering different products for different people, and keeping it all under the same brand name. You've got the Mustang, for the American muscle crowd, and the Focus ST, appealing to European hot-hatch fans; two groups that are about as diametrically opposed as you can get. Add in an assortment of family sedans in all trim levels, minivans, cross-over SUV's, drive-over (as in "drive over you") SUV's, trucks... And they still manage to have a fairly consistent favorability amongst people. You don't hear someone saying, "Ugh... I'll never buy a Taurus from the same people who made the Fiesta SVT!" I don't see why it would be different for Toyota.

And while I think your metaphor of using smart phones and electronics is spot on, I also think people get more conservative and cautious with their spending as the amount being spent goes up. For a phone, I might pick up something because I like the color. For a computer, performance specs matter, and I might do a quick Google search for user reviews. When I'm buying a car? Oh, you're damn right the reliability reports on a 2002 Camry influences my 2012 Scion buying decision! LOL... I want to know everything I can about the company who makes a car, their dealership ratings, frequency of recalls, average longevity of every car in the fleet... everything! I really, really try not to pick on particular car companies, but if GM were to release the lost triplet to our sisters, with a turbo and for about a grand less... I still wouldn't buy it. Too many bad experiences back in the day for me (though I keep hearing they've turned things around, so who knows). Which, speaking of brand evaluating...

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

You can't really compare Scion to Apple, because it would be an insult to Apple. Apple makes beautifully designed, top quality products, while Toyota makes crappy, cheap versions of some cars and brands them as Scion in the US. Although the engine is the same, reliability is the same, the interior materials just feel like cheap plastic overall. Not to mention their marketing direction for Scion is not aiming toward "people who are willing to pay more for better stuff". You won't find a single person would associate the Scion brand with class.

Just by looking at FR-S and BRZ, I know there's a price difference, but the interior of FR-S clearly looks cheap when compared side-by-side with the BRZ. Why can't Toyota make the FR-S with the same nice interior of 86 (higher trim level)?

I keep reading this exact same criticism in several places. I wonder how much of this is our perception of the Scion brand? (Mind you, I am NOT immune to this effect! Even recognizing it in myself, I can't stop it.) I mean, yeah... the Scion base stereo looks like it was pulled out of a 90's model Pontiac, all big and plasticky looking. And yeah, we didn't get the leather options. But to the best of my understanding, aside from those two things, the interiors are otherwise identical. Same panels, same seats, same gauges, same steering wheel, etc...

That's how important brand image is. Notice I'm not saying, "We're all being dumb, and should just get over it." No, it's human psychology; there's whole libraries written on how our perception of a brand influences how we think about a product. Which is why I'm worried so much about this car being a Scion product in America; some people (Toyota included, apparently) feel that introducing this car to the Scion lineup will improve the public's perception of the Scion brand, but I'm more of the opinion that doing this will instead lower the public's perception of the car. And I don't want that, not because I'm afraid people will think I'm driving an uncool car, but because if people don't think the car is any good then they won't buy it. Then if sales aren't good, there won't be any improvements made. No STi version, no TRD superchargers. Other companies will then steer clear of offering sports cars, and before long it's the early 2000's all over again... AND I CAN'T GO BACK THERE!!! I JUST CAN'T!!! ... sorry, lost it for a bit. <casts soap-opera style meaningful glare at Nissan from across the room>

Just my 2 yen's worth. I am kinda curious if anybody out there actually does have a favorable view of Scion, but's just too intimidated to speak up on here. Auto forums do tend to turn into echo chambers after a while.