These cars are fast

[Chad86]

Originally Posted by regal

Because I work in the auto industry, but at least now you understand what I am saying.. If Subaru continues with their plans to use the FA20T in more cars it will become more expensive to deal with the D4-S than their vesrion DIT.


And no its not dumping its working in whats called a lean manufacturing environment. The actual cost to Subaru on the Forester FA20 turbo+DI is probably already less than Toyota's D4-s DI on the twin's FA20. The EPA and other countries testing is going to be the most expensive part of the business case, but if marketing wants it bad enough they will get it, that is if CR and others don't keep it from selling.


You have to understand that labor costs can be more than parts cost for one, R&D, and tooling capital can more expensive as well. The FA20T has the tooling done, captial spent and labor issues figured out. A detuned GT-86 FA20T slightly modified for fitment would probably cost little if any thing to switch from the Toyotas D4-S blackmail. Tada, maybe someone higher f-up when they stepped on Subaru's toes.


Subaru holds all the cards when the contract runs up. Toyotas only option is what they did to the 2ZZ, a positive displacement supercharger, I've heard rumbling that for emissions this is even better than a DIT, but I'm afraid that will cost $35k. And I wager they kill the whole project before being outdone by Subaru.

Agreed. This project is Toyota's baby and I'm sure they don't want Subaru messing with it. They just needed them for collaboration to put this car together.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Vides990

The FA20T doesn't fit in the BRZ because it has a bottom mounted turbo system, the exhaust is on the wrong side of the car and wouldn't come close to have the correct clearance. While you may "feel" and "think" Subaru/Toyota can easily make this happen, they can't, its a matter of economics and research and developement and would need to have the car completely re-designed. There's no way you work in the "automotive" industry and then spout the information you do, its embarassing.

What do you mean.. Plenty of floor washers and clerks in the automotive industry..

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Chad86

Agreed. This project is Toyota's baby and I'm sure they don't want Subaru messing with it. They just needed them for collaboration to put this car together.

What.. The car was designed by both.. Mostly subaru.. Using sube factories, parts, labor, etc.. Subaru more than messes with it.. I see a few bits from the scion parts bin and the D4S.. Not much more from Toyota..

[Sonolin]

The Jeep SRT-8 actually is faster (stock) around VIR I believe LOL

Either way I couldn't imagine myself buying that over this for a track car... DD maybe though

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Chad86

This is what I need? Can you point me in the right direction?

Look for the innovate supercharger, openflash tune, and headers/overpipe/exhaust you like best. If you buy the OFT, you get a discount on Vishnu's header. You'll see people refer to it as OFT/OFH.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Look for the innovate supercharger, openflash tune, and headers/overpipe/exhaust you like best. If you buy the OFT, you get a discount on Vishnu's header. You'll see people refer to it as OFT/OFH.

I think he was just poking utekineir with a stick.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I think he was just poking utekineir with a stick.

@GrimmSpeed makes poking sticks. They call 'em "strut bars" or some nonsense, but they're pretty sturdy.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

What.. The car was designed by both.. Mostly subaru.. Using sube factories, parts, labor, etc.. Subaru more than messes with it.. I see a few bits from the scion parts bin and the D4S.. Not much more from Toyota..

Heh I feel like kicking a hornets nest so here it goes:

By all counts Subaru is a contractor for the 86. Toyota wants it built, doesn't have the resources so they pay Subaru to do the legwork and build the thing to the customer's specs (Toyota). Sure it's a simplification but it isn't wrong.

Yes mechanically speaking this car has more in common with any Subaru than any Toyota on the road today, it can be argued every which way who's more responsible for the car but any way you slice it: Toyota pays Subaru to build these cars, Subaru would not be making ANYTHING like this without Toyota's paycheck and direction.

So here's the point to be made: Subaru can build an FA20T capable of delivering OEM power many critics want. The critics are asking "Why haven't they?"

Anything after the above statement is speculation. "Oh they haven't because Toyota won't let them" "It won't fit in certain emissions targets" "Because they don't think it'll sell" "Because it'll be too expensive" "Because they want to hold out to maximize market profits and quell future challengers" etc. etc. etc.

People have already latched onto the theories that conform to their own bias (i.e. Toyota is full of fools, turbos are overrated, $$$, conning the market) and we won't hear the end of it until 20 years from now when retired engineers & executives start publishing books and giving 'honest' interviews.

[Chad86]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Look for the innovate supercharger, openflash tune, and headers/overpipe/exhaust you like best. If you buy the OFT, you get a discount on Vishnu's header. You'll see people refer to it as OFT/OFH.

It is probably pretty expensive to get a Crawford tune, eh?



After watching this clip, I think I will stick with innovate or vortech...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f8J895ol_g"]BRZ Weekly Update #16: Crawford BRZ Thoughts and This Week in Automotive News - YouTube[/ame]

[djmm]

Why Subaru hasn't built the better version of 86 you say? Putting my corporate hat on, I must assume that there would be a very thick legal documents with Subaru and Toyota both agreeing not to build cars within the specs/characteristics of 86 within certain period of time.

And you got to be honest that their cash cows are the camrys and imprezas anyway... they are probably happy with this "side incomes" coming from sales and commissions of building 86es....

I think they both can cooperate because 86 is not similar to any of their current car lineups. But how long can this cooperation last and whether there will be continuing lines of 86, only time will tell.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Vides990

The FA20T doesn't fit in the BRZ because it has a bottom mounted turbo system, the exhaust is on the wrong side of the car and wouldn't come close to have the correct clearance. While you may "feel" and "think" Subaru/Toyota can easily make this happen, they can't, its a matter of economics and research and developement and would need to have the car completely re-designed. There's no way you work in the "automotive" industry and then spout the information you do, its embarassing.

If fa20club can sell a turbo for our cars deom scratch @3500,the FA20T can be modified to work with the 86 for pennies on the dollar. A huge portion of the cost is the turbo itself, you are unbelievably uniformed about cars and what goes on behind the scenes. If you had ever worked at any level in the automotive industry besides janitorial this would be clear as day.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Heh I feel like kicking a hornets nest so here it goes:

By all counts Subaru is a contractor for the 86. Toyota wants it built, doesn't have the resources so they pay Subaru to do the legwork and build the thing to the customer's specs (Toyota). Sure it's a simplification but it isn't wrong.

Yes mechanically speaking this car has more in common with any Subaru than any Toyota on the road today, it can be argued every which way who's more responsible for the car but any way you slice it: Toyota pays Subaru to build these cars, Subaru would not be making ANYTHING like this without Toyota's paycheck and direction.

So here's the point to be made: Subaru can build an FA20T capable of delivering OEM power many critics want. The critics are asking "Why haven't they?"

Anything after the above statement is speculation. "Oh they haven't because Toyota won't let them" "It won't fit in certain emissions targets" "Because they don't think it'll sell" "Because it'll be too expensive" "Because they want to hold out to maximize market profits and quell future challengers" etc. etc. etc.

People have already latched onto the theories that conform to their own bias (i.e. Toyota is full of fools, turbos are overrated, $$$, conning the market) and we won't hear the end of it until 20 years from now when retired engineers & executives start publishing books and giving 'honest' interviews.

You make some good point but I ask you a question. You contract 5 guys burgers to cook a lunch of burgers, are those burgers five guys burgers or yours (since you paid them to make them).


This car is a Subaru, they even had to make the D4-S work with little help from Toyota. Its a Subaru.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by regal

If fa20club can sell a turbo for our cars deom scratch @3500,the FA20T can be modified to work with the 86 for pennies on the dollar. A huge portion of the cost is the turbo itself, you are unbelievably uniformed about cars and what goes on behind the scenes. If you had ever worked at any level in the automotive industry besides janitorial this would be clear as day.

I am convinced you are a troll with unlimited patience.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

The Jeep SRT-8 actually is faster (stock) around VIR I believe LOL

Either way I couldn't imagine myself buying that over this for a track car... DD maybe though

Some laptimes I've found:

VIR (grand course)
Jeep SRT8 - 3:17.4
BRZ - 3:18.6

Nurburgring
GT86 (Potenza RE050a) - 8:44.9
Jeep SRT8 - 8:49.0
GT86 - 9:09, damp

I thought the Twins would get destroyed on power tracks like VIR and Nurburgring, but it's actually pretty close. On semi-decent tires, the Twins might actually be faster.

[Chad86]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Some laptimes I've found:

VIR (grand course)
Jeep SRT8 - 3:17.4
BRZ - 3:18.6

Nurburgring
GT86 (Potenza RE050a) - 8:44.9
Jeep SRT8 - 8:49.0
GT86 - 9:09, damp

I thought the Twins would get destroyed on power tracks like VIR and Nurburgring, but it's actually pretty close. On semi-decent tires, the Twins might actually be faster.

Is it worth upgrading to better tires after I burn up the prius tires...will the grip actually help to go a little quicker...?