KW V3 Coilovers Released for FR-S / BRZ

[Godzpeed]

Have been using KW on most of my cars, looks like this is the set i'll be getting for my 86!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by RYU

Who said anything about a war... I've been on forums far too long my friend.

The mods should delete all of these for being

Sorry everyone.

I don't think they were off topic really. Discussion of products is critical here IMO, both the pros and cons.

For the good of the community you should continue to post your experiences with less expensive options IMO.

[Matt Andrews]

damper discussions always go like this on forums. People who mostly drive their cars on the street defend the likes of Tein, Buddyclub, Stance, k-sport, etc. The race community almost always disparages them. People will justify purchases however they want, and do indeed have different criteria they are looking for. Lap times not what everyone is after...

Here are a couple facts (admittedly from someone who has done damper development and chassis set up for other race teams - so you can already guess which side of this arguement I come down on)

1. Many high volume, lower cost dampers use generic valving which is manufactured with little quality control. I've put 4 different shocks from a manufacture named above on a shock dyno. And not only were the damping "curves" not curves at all, they also weren't the same from unit to unit. Not only that, when we took them apart to revalve them, we discovered the shim stacks were not even put in the same order from unit to unit. SO not only were the parts made poorly, but the poorly manufactured parts were then put together improperly.
2. In many mass production dampers made by companies that don't specialize in damper development, "adjustments" either don't change the damping curve, change it unpredictably, change both compression and rebound at the same time, or don't change the same from one unit to another. Each of these has its own issues, but ultimately keeps the car from being set up predictably or optimally.
3. Often the dampers used on chassis "A" are also the exact same damper used on chassis "B". Some manufactures have masked this by using adjustable threaded pearchs to make the damper fit in multiple chassis. But they can't however adjust for the inherently different stroke requirements of the cars. the manufactures then say this is an added feature called "spring preload tuning". While in reality, if the spring is a linear spring, the force required to compress them is the same for the first inch of compression from full expansion as it is for the last inch of compression before binding.
4. The quality of the springs shipped with the kits. Just like putting product on a shock dyno, teams looking to ensure the best quality also double check the springs they use. I've also checked the spring rates on cheaper kits as we tried to set up budget race cars. And they were not what was advertised. I'm at a point now that if it isn't a KW or a swift spring, I want it meassured before being put on the car.

Paying a lot doesn't necissarily get you a better product. I personally have had bad experiences with HKS, silk road, and several other "high end" shocks made by tuner brands. And even the ones that have quality valving are sprung way too stiff for US roads and tracks. Best guess is that maybe these setups work well in japan where the race tracks generally have much smoother surfaces than here in the US. Our tracks are rough, and need a more compliant spring rate to keep the tires on the ground.

Hope you are happy with whatever you buy. The sad reality is that most FR-S don't need better dampers to be faster - the owners should spend the money on performance driving classes instead. Now appearance is another thing. Sorry if I sound like a shock snob.

Best,
Matt Andrews

[RYU]

Matt, you don't come off like a shock snob at all. At least to me. I also appreciated your questions on the RS*R thread. Hoping to hear back on that.

I've spent a good amount of time researching some of the low cost coilover offerings. Admittedly, there's a lot of junk to have to wade thru. I also agree that many of the cheaper Japanese offerings may be more suited to their smooth streets and tracks and also agree being able to dial-in some droop would improve ride quality on the street hence, 0 (or negative?) spring load. In any case, I eventually settled upon a set from BC Racing using Swift matched springs. This option comes with a revalve job if needed and your choice of spring rates for Swifts. I'm not saying these are better than the KWs but for roughly $1000-1300 (not sure how much the FRS/BRZ version will be) they seemed like the best unit I could find where it provided ~80% of the performance at 50% of the cost. I feel that since they are assembled here in the US at their facility in FL they may have better control over QC even if ever so slightly.

Have you had any experience with this particular coilover? Would appreciate a PM if you feel this is OT.

[Dave-ROR]

Matt: Curious, have you tested any of the Eibach race springs? (ERS stuff, not the lowering springs).

[Racecomp Engineering]

Wow, excellent post Matt. Well put.

- Andrew

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Matt: Curious, have you tested any of the Eibach race springs? (ERS stuff, not the lowering springs).

From the spring measurement data I've seen 1st hand, Swift and Hyperco are the leaders for spring rate consistency and linearity. KW race and Eibach ERS are also good, but not perfect.

-->RYU: I ran BC coils w/Swift springs on my MINI once upon a time. This was a combination I touted for a while in the MINI community as there were so few offerings it was tragic. With the terrible out-of-the-box BC springs, the setup straight-up sucked. With the Swift springs, the system worked OK. When I went to custom valved KW Clubsports w/KW race springs, the chassis behavior was a revelation, mainly due to the damper quality. It rode better, transitioned quicker, and was more stable in bumpy corners. Having 50% more suspension stroke did wonders. Of course, the static cornering balance didn't change, but that's because the spring rates didn't change. Long story short, going from modest dampers to upper-mid-level dampers really made the car both fun and predictable.

[Dave-ROR]

I definately prefer Swift as well. The good honda stuff comes with swift springs also. ERS are so easy to find though

[Ryephile]

Evasive Motorsports carries Swift

Hyperco are also super easy to get through good ole Pegasus Racing

[Dave-ROR]

<< lazy Just calls eibach or ground control for springs back in the day.

[kanundrum]

maybe we can all get a thread started like the following:

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37735


all suspension information etc not just a generic google spreadsheet type of thing.

[Moto-P]

Just a question...on the ad claims

"...rebound damping (comfort) and the compression damping (driving dynamics)..."
"...ease of use..."

Rebound and compression isn't singularly synonymous with comfort and dynamics...
Both attributes are a blend of rebound and compression. And, apparent harshness of suspension is more connected with overly high compression rates, preventing the springs to perform at the specified rates, and in such case, playing with rebound won't help it much if the compression rate is high where suspension isn't compressing compliantly to make use of rebound side.

Dampers are tools to adjust the speed of spring motions, and springs are calibrated to support a specified load for an intended design and purpose.
They need to work flawlessly in carefully calibrated balance.

I can also go on for days, but it seems really strange that a manufacturer will comment in such ways in an effort to advertise something catered to very high end enthusiasts.

I say this because for those who actually can make use of DUAL adjustment dampers, the statement is rather unconvincing.
People who can utilize and properly setup a dual adjust dampers are folks who are VERY skilled, and has a pretty good resources, and are able to actually work out the balance with calibration tools, for the two parameters separately. This is usually reserved for the highest end tuner facilities and racing teams, and not even most hardest core of backyard tuners.

That said, MOST enthusiasts and weekend racers, need a "well-balanced, progressive single adjust, that keeps a very good ratio of both settings and adjusted in a single sweep, rather than separately, so that adjustments required for tire grip or road surface/venue is simpler and less mistakes happen along the way.
And THIS part of fine balancing of both on single adjust is where great manufacturers who do proper R&D with skilled folks, separate from companies who are incapable in doing this.
For most cars though, it is more ideal to find ONE good setting, and not play with it so much, so that the drivers can get accustomed to and drive better. I've seen more people lose a national championshio SOLO2 run, just because they simply had too many variables to play with, which could have been won, only if they stopped fiddling with dampers and alignments, and just corrected the driver errors more...

This is also why it takes 18 months for Mr.Tada and his team to create a ONE GOOD setting on the Nurburgring, Fuji, and many thousands of miles of canyons, deserts, highways, and come up with an excellent product final form like the OEM units on the FRS/BRZ. Be careful.

I don't discredit the product since I haven't used this unit, and all I am saying is with variables too great, it is easier to totally wreck something that was already pretty darn good, as in the case of factory stuff on this car.

I agree with Matt Andrews on his post up there as well.

[Racecomp Engineering]

There is for sure an advantage to quickly and easily setting a street car up with a good single adjustable damper (or even a well valved custom non-adjustable). I personally run singles on my street car and rarely adjust anything. Once they're dialed in, I'm happy.

As you said there are definitely advantages to a good 2 way...but only if you know what you're doing. I've personally helped people adjust these coilovers in particular to help adapt to changing conditions and make the changes necessary to go faster but it isn't easy. A particularly skilled driver used our 2way RCE Tarmac 2 coilovers (built by KW) to win a STU national championship. Of course many others have won on single and non-adjustables too (and 3 and 4 ways too i'm sure). IMO there can be more potential as long as the valving is done correctly but for the street it isn't really necessary.

I do agree that the description given by the manufacturer for the effects of compression and rebound is extremely general and not entirely correct, possibly leading to people adjusting things in a way that makes things worse.

I disagree however that having that a single adjustable damper should adjust both compression and rebound at the same time. I generally do not want to increase compression and rebound at the same time and would prefer rebound only adjustment if I had to choose. I also disagree that the shock should be progressive, I wan the opposite of that (digressive).

- Andrew

[blu_]

I would love to see you guys work with AST 4100's or something along those lines. Possibly at a price point slightly below your tarmac2's. I was always torn between those and the TiC 4100's for the STI.